tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post319356527040770553..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: colkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-84949161189407395892012-07-15T10:59:22.755-06:002012-07-15T10:59:22.755-06:00You haven't debunked anything. We have a sacra...You haven't debunked anything. We have a sacramental, magical, priesthood that appeals to immature young men precisely because it is fantastical and based in magic thinking and magic ritual. It is one big RPG game in way too many respects. One in which Pope Benedict XVI plays the religious role of Gandalf--the kindly gentle articulate white wizard, and best of all, girls aren't allowed to play any of the meaningful roles.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-34363221097344864122012-07-14T14:31:07.630-06:002012-07-14T14:31:07.630-06:00You can't have it both ways, Colkoch!
Either
...You can't have it both ways, Colkoch!<br /><br />Either<br /><br />It is because we have a sacramental priesthood.<br /><br />OR<br /><br />It is because men are too immature.<br /><br />You can't just bounce off one to the other as soon as I debunk whichever one you're playing with at the time. That is extremely silly.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-75592079817625312032012-07-10T00:41:42.093-06:002012-07-10T00:41:42.093-06:00Vatican II isn't relevant here, as the documen...Vatican II isn't relevant here, as the documents of the Second Vatican Council are all orthodox.<br /><br />And the Church is in what sense the Church or the privileged, these days? You need to justify that assumption of yours, because it seems to me so at odds with reality.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-65150911598566816902012-07-07T21:17:51.403-06:002012-07-07T21:17:51.403-06:00In spite of your efforts Invictus, younger Catholi...In spite of your efforts Invictus, younger Catholic youth in the West are not even 1/3 of the numbers of us who experienced Vatican II. If the Western Church continues to atrophy at it's current alarming rate then your opinions will count because you will have the only opinions. The other 90% of your age bracket will have left. <br /><br />Catholicism will be leaner and meaner and even more under the thumbs of the uber wealthy who don't give a fig about those Jesus describes in the Beatitudes. They don't have to because our Church leadership has become economically just like them. They have achieved that status by convincing the pious and scared uber wealthy their donations to Catholic leadership is the same as living the Beatitudes.<br /><br />In the meantime, the science of neurophysiology, quantum physics and psychological development will continue to prove the radical counter intuitive things Jesus taught and witnessed are fact and not religious myth.<br /><br />I sincerely hope you are not considering the priesthood because it will be exposed for the wrong tracked concept it is. Wait, better things are coming.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-87528653021728953592012-07-07T21:06:38.928-06:002012-07-07T21:06:38.928-06:00It describes two systems, the current Vatican and ...It describes two systems, the current Vatican and the Soviet Union under Breznev.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-1449698348809611712012-07-07T21:05:43.720-06:002012-07-07T21:05:43.720-06:00No, the problem is the innate nature of immature m...No, the problem is the innate nature of immature men and the systems they create to perpetuate their world view. We do not need priests from the 'clerical hogwarts seminaries'. That is immature thinking counter to Jesus' teachings who said we all could do as He did and to call no man 'father'.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-86091115970561911062012-07-06T14:00:46.111-06:002012-07-06T14:00:46.111-06:00Such sexism and ageism is not becoming.Such sexism and ageism is not becoming.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-36795825780907469762012-07-06T13:59:00.793-06:002012-07-06T13:59:00.793-06:00Except...
...sexual abuse happens in Christian gr...Except...<br /><br />...sexual abuse happens in Christian groups with a non-sacramental understanding of priestly ministry, and the statistics suggest that the abuse happens on an equal scale or a greater scale there than it does in the Church. Ditto Islam, and Judaism.<br /><br />Those figures indicate that it is also a massive problem in education, and in youth organisations.<br /><br />Clearly, the problem is the "sacramental nature" of preachers, teachers, and youth workers!<br /><br />Oh, no. Wait. That's <i>absolute nonsense</i>.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-54228615160623091432012-07-05T12:56:36.357-06:002012-07-05T12:56:36.357-06:00The casual ageism of the posts here is always a bi...The casual ageism of the posts here is always a bit baffling, at it's the 60-90 age bracket who pushed forward the kind of heterodoxy this blog supports! If the posts here are to be believed, the older demographic is simultaneously both poison and antidote (from whatever side one views that dodgy polarity)!<br /><br />Crazy. What about active Catholic youth, and their 'problematic' orthodoxy? Are they not relevant to this picture, then?Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-82738233549241786522012-07-04T13:03:15.178-06:002012-07-04T13:03:15.178-06:00I'm the author of the quote John Shared, and h...I'm the author of the quote John Shared, and have other posts like that on my blog.<br /><br />The "part time" thing is huge. I've written about this on my blog:<br /><br />http://renegadetrad.blogspot.ca/2010/04/root-of-all-evil.html<br /><br />http://renegadetrad.blogspot.ca/2010/06/full-timepart-time.html<br /><br />There are really three things you need to do to fix the priesthood:<br /><br />A) end mandatory celibacy, B) end the "boarding school" seminary model [that can last as long as Medical School; sorry, but the parish priesthood isn't rocket science or brain surgery], C) make the priesthood largely "volunteer-part time" with men from the parish taking, as you say, a day or two a month.<br /><br />Why won't they do this? I suspect because it would put them out of jobs. If it was all doable by volunteers, what would justify a huge beauracracy of leeches with cushy jobs living off our donations for (sometimes) not doing much of anything? So you have to create high barriers to entry and a huge mystique around it to justify its existence as a career/occupation/lifestyle.A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-55401682350499544992012-07-01T21:10:17.319-06:002012-07-01T21:10:17.319-06:00'The real question is, can ethical people rema...'The real question is, can ethical people remain Roman Catholics anymore?' <br /><br />I don't know Dennis. I want to think that people can remain Roman Catholic as long as they don't fund the leadership or agree to be an active part of the teaching/clerical system, but that could just be me being stupid. On the other hand, Jamie Manson's latest column really gave me pause to think and re evaluate. One of my main motivations for writin this blog is my awareness of what current church teaching is doing to women and families in the South. That just can't be allowed to continue, and it's Western, mostly US, Canadian, and German money that allows the Vatican to continue using and abusing women and children in the South. Reform for me is about more than the clerical system, it's about the kind of patriarchal nonsense that underlies the sexual and sacramental theology of this Church.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-89547975344122714242012-07-01T21:03:23.942-06:002012-07-01T21:03:23.942-06:00Dennis, I wish more people were aware of the fact ...Dennis, I wish more people were aware of the fact that a number of institutions bishops sent these priests too have closed or lost their accreditation. I'm getting more than a little tired of the Bill Donohue excuse that the bishops were mislead by 'psychiatric' advice. It's more the psychiatric advisors were prejudiced in favor of an outcome the bishops wanted to hear.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-29662180941661123522012-07-01T21:00:24.306-06:002012-07-01T21:00:24.306-06:00Dianne, I have to disagree. I think the abuse sca...Dianne, I have to disagree. I think the abuse scandal would have happened no matter if women were ordained into this priesthood. Until the whole magical mystery tour of ordained priesthood is dropped, those ordained into it are susceptible to keeping their status. Not very many priests want to wash the feet of the marginalized when they have been indoctrinated into this version of sacramental priesthood.<br /><br />No, this priesthood is a counter sign to most of what Jesus taught and it has to go.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-91778111217563353312012-07-01T20:57:13.033-06:002012-07-01T20:57:13.033-06:00I agree as well Sue. The more I think about this,...I agree as well Sue. The more I think about this, the more I have to agree with the philosophy of the Base Community project in South America. Before JPII killed it, it was vibrant and growing and making inroads in all kinds of areas. It was 'rumored' that JPII pretty much ended this movement for two reasons. It was too Marxist, and it blurred the difference between the laity and the ordained. Well, ya know what? If Catholicism wants to survive, it's going to have to tolerate some blurring. No Jew, no Gentile; no male, no female; no slave, no master; no priest, no laity; no separation just recognized connection.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-34091264504237960282012-07-01T20:50:07.062-06:002012-07-01T20:50:07.062-06:00Except it's excellent John. I've never loo...Except it's excellent John. I've never looked at this quite the way your quote does, and I suspect that's because I've never been forced to accept celibacy as part of my vocation. I can easily see with the over abuse dynamic inherent in the theology of our current priesthood that celibacy could be coerced in the same way sex is coereced. Thanks for this link.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-63609818384503793742012-06-30T00:58:28.442-06:002012-06-30T00:58:28.442-06:00I think a good organization does consult with thos...I think a good organization does consult with those who have had a lot of experience, but there comes a time in anyone's life, man or woman, that others should lead. As a 60+ year old white man with cancer, I can no longer to the things I once could have done. I can not be the leader of a big organization or even teach in a major institution any more because I just can not keep up with my former pace. This octogenarian that claims a position of leadership in the RCC acted lost his integrity a long time ago and is now like me loosing his facilities to be able to really lead. This is true even though when he did lead he lost all sense of what is ethical action and began to believe that others should obey him because of his position. <br /><br />The real question is, can ethical people remain Roman Catholics anymore? Are those of us who have stayed just confusing he picture? I long ago gave up contributing a nickel to the Episcopacy. How can I stay in this organization that projects a total lack of ethical behavior and fakes ethics claiming that others are inter rearing with episcopal freedom. Should these old men have the freedom to enable sex crime or banking crimes anymore? Are we just kidding ourselves when we think that this organization can reform from within?rdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-91634611610664337772012-06-29T00:46:13.672-06:002012-06-29T00:46:13.672-06:00Can you think of any organization, business, chari...Can you think of any organization, business, charity, club, game night, lodge, or even a family— anywhere that is being run solely, and being run WELL by privileged white men in their 70's and 80'? <br /><br />And if it does exist, would it really be somewhere you OR anyone else would want to be? Or even feel welcome there?Annika-Kaatrinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02937858983522021733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-17017579310834124332012-06-28T22:58:32.783-06:002012-06-28T22:58:32.783-06:00Colleen, it's interesting to me in that not on...Colleen, it's interesting to me in that not only do I think full time priests are not as needed but I think seminary educations are an uneeded expense for the secular diocesan priesthood. I can see it for the monastic life but not for diocesan clergy. The secular priesthood is just that , secular, of the here and now , so I don't see the needed to place grown men into a boarding school setting for 8 years to go prepare them as parish priests. Working a job, making ends meet and attending seminary would be good training for a priest. A coworker who worked for the Denver Archdiocese told me she found many of the priests she worked around to be of a "pampered prince" mentality. She was expected at times to shop and cook for some of these guys even though she did bookkeeping. <br /><br />I also agree about seminaries and young men, as this trad puts very well in a post from years ago , I.found much to agree with...<br /><br /><i>... There is not much talk of "discerning" marriage among Catholics, people just date. It always is used with regards to priesthood and religious life. But even among young men considering the priesthood, you will find that "discernment" almost always concerns whether they are willing to give up a wife and kids and sex. If a man is already in "discernment," then 9 times out of 10...he's a devout, zealous Catholic who would become a priest enthusiastically, no question...if it weren't for the celibacy thing. "Discernment" usually isnt about the priesthood in itself, which most "discerning" men are already highly attracted to, it's merely the one accidental aspect that they angst over.<br /><br />"Discernment" then becomes a sort of sexual grooming by the institutional organs in charge of recruiting "vocations"...though in this case a grooming to give up sex instead of give it. But, let me tell you from personal experience with such recruiters, the tactics used are quite the same between this grooming and an abuser's, and though perhaps more subtle, to a sensitive person they get their feelers into exactly the same places psychologically. It's not just me, I've talked to other young men who feel the same way, and the whole process by which the institution recruits men and the vocabulary of "vocation" and "discernment" gives us the heebie-jeebies.<br /><br />It's creepy in exactly the same way that sexual grooming or seduction or sexual blackmail is, and plays with exactly the same emotions, gets into the same mental space. Because, after all, the Institutional church is courting these young men in a relationship analogized in all things to a sexual one. Except instead of having sex, you're giving it up, but it's still handing over control of sexuality, and trying to manipulate people into that is still disgusting and creepy... Now, after all that, I must remind people that I support celibacy (though not mandatory) and believe it is a beautiful life. I personally feel drawn to it. But, as in a sexual relationship, there is a great difference between falling in love on the one hand, and being groomed or seduced or psychologically pressured or being put in an arranged marriage, etc. Those who become celibate should do so freely and fully because they have fallen in love, as should the married. Any sort of coercion, however subtle, is wrong, and making people "sacrifice" marriage, children, and sex for the priesthood, as if it is a trade-off, is an idea that should make any mature adult cringe.</i> <br />.<br />Sorry for the lengthy quote there is too much I agree with there. <a href="http://renegadetrad.blogspot.com/2010/01/on-creepiness-of-institutionalization.html" rel="nofollow"> Falling in Love and the Creepiness of Institutional Seminaries</a><br /><br />John FremontAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-33047059061131050752012-06-28T22:03:11.612-06:002012-06-28T22:03:11.612-06:00I agree, I'm sure there are a lot of former se...I agree, I'm sure there are a lot of former seminarians who dropped out to marry their sweethearts who would love to come and serve a Mass once a month and hear confessions.<br /><br />John FremontAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-28467864809069654592012-06-27T22:58:36.985-06:002012-06-27T22:58:36.985-06:00In fact women should have been making the decision...In fact women should have been making the decisions because they are in a preponderance of the employees of Catholic Services in almost if not all Catholic dioceses. It seems the men of the church sent these offenders to special clinics where they could be controlled. Most of these special clings and hospitals have lost professional recognition because they were not operating out of the professionalism necessary to keep them accredited. The church is in a mess without listening to good people period. That women make up a large number of these good people is undeniable. That the Catholic nuns and sitters in the States that really built US Catholicism should be held in question is more than remarkable. It is an indication of the implosion from within the Vatican. Can ethical people be Roman Catholics? dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-84801822573900101732012-06-27T10:18:48.746-06:002012-06-27T10:18:48.746-06:00Why not revisit the fact that married men cannot b...Why not revisit the fact that married men cannot be priests(unless of course, they convert from being Episcopalian priests)?<br /><br />And of course, the ordination of women. At least 50% of a congregation is made up of women. It is ridiculous not to allow them to serve.<br />I cannot help but think that the abuse scandal would never have existed or have been very short lived if women would have been making decisions about those priests.dianedphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01671669779210554828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-10552979868481229912012-06-27T09:42:17.020-06:002012-06-27T09:42:17.020-06:00I also ponder the concept of one or two full time ...I also ponder the concept of one or two full time priests in a parish. Why not 30 part timers working on an on call basis with one pastor? Think about the rich resource of former priests who might come back to serve for one or two days a month. Take celibacy off the table and I think we have a huge number of people who are interested in serving and making sacraments available to people. Invite women and the numbers would be through the roof. As part timers, as people who (metaphorically) work in the kitchen, say the blessing, and invite the people of God to the table.Sue Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-8530600927710591852012-06-26T23:05:57.671-06:002012-06-26T23:05:57.671-06:00I certainly wouldn't advocate for any son to g...I certainly wouldn't advocate for any son to go into seminary formation before their mid thirties. Thank God I have a daughter who is funnily enough thinking about the Episcopal priesthood. I sort of hope it's just a thought, although she would be very good. I'm not sure what my hesitancy is except I don't actually think a full time hierarchical ritual priesthood is necessary. It leads to too much religious careerism and not enough Christian spirituality.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-32620143549923027332012-06-26T19:47:15.430-06:002012-06-26T19:47:15.430-06:00It's not a sacramental fast it is a famine. A ...It's not a sacramental fast it is a famine. A fast is undertaken intentionally, a famine forces everyone to starve. But quibbles aside, I agree with what you wrote. I don't want to encourage either of my kids to enter Church religious life. My hope for them is a future in a career where their gifts and talents are nurtured and appreciated. I would strongly advise them against entering ANY profession that is so dysfunctional and pathological as the Church right now. At what point does continuing to support the church constitute cooperation with material Evil. I ponder this often.Sue Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-794448647399179072012-06-26T14:14:05.783-06:002012-06-26T14:14:05.783-06:00As Geraldine, the Flip Wilson character of blessed...As Geraldine, the Flip Wilson character of blessed memory, would say: The Devil made me do it.<br /><br />I'm surprised that the Vaticanes haven't developed a Rite of Exorcism around parents who don't force their boys into the land of ontological emasculation.<br /><br />Parents are smarter than given credit for being.Jimmy Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01156445623455211484noreply@blogger.com