tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post3596400486770228050..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Tom Roberts Tells It Like It Iscolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-10851198315664317962013-03-01T10:58:31.687-07:002013-03-01T10:58:31.687-07:00"The Church has never abused..."
If by..."The Church has never abused..."<br /><br /><br />If by 'Church' you mean the clerical hierarchy - then you are wrong. Their abuse, and compounding of earlier abuses, wholly re traumatizes in even more profound ways. And you are complicit in that abuse by your denial. Shame on you !!!! May God forgive you for you will answer to it one day too. Now go and make a proper confession and keep your ignorance where it belongs - same place it came from - where the sun don't shine.Bradynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-81797847783087106562012-05-02T18:21:27.188-06:002012-05-02T18:21:27.188-06:00Christianity as a whole seems to be facing challen...Christianity as a whole seems to be facing challenges on two fronts in modern industrial nations, especially those in the western world. One has to do with credibility, which is at the heart of the posts on this blog have been about of late, and the other is <a href="http://peacefulturmoil.blogspot.com/2012/04/will-christianity-rediscover-its.html" rel="nofollow">relevance</a>.<br /><br />Without a doubt, many ancient orders of religious such as the Benedictines and Franciscans, and the women and men who serve in them, can give all denominations a model to follow. The focus on a lived gospel as opposed to merely the recited gospel and its symbols is a good start. The religious, ordained and otherwise, seem to be much better at translating the stories of the heart into the contemporary world without rejecting the core of the tradition from which they spring. <br /><br />The work of these nuns and monks with so many of the most vulnerable people and in some truly dangerous situations, with the priority as caring rather than mechanical conversion, has been a boon to the battered image of Christianity in an increasingly cynical atmosphere toward organized religion and an era of mega churches touting prosperity gospels while appearing to despise the poor and those on the margins. <br /><br />For some reason this unfolding story about the LCWR and the Vatican reminds me of the fable of the goose that laid the golden eggs.tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-19181521962690464662012-04-29T15:40:32.806-06:002012-04-29T15:40:32.806-06:00Colkoch,
Jesus left us the Church. If you don'...Colkoch,<br /><br />Jesus left us the Church. If you don't want it, you don't want it, but all this pretending it doesn't exist or never existed is pretty tiresome stuff.<br /><br />And blatantly protestant.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-8486941025644350372012-04-28T19:29:31.542-06:002012-04-28T19:29:31.542-06:00Well said, Colleen. One only needs to look at the ...Well said, Colleen. One only needs to look at the biographies of the previous 'Vicars of Christ' to see how very, very clearly they are not Jesus and Jesus is not them. The history of the Church makes the contemporary church look really good.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02873593983431589723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-73792419056898498872012-04-28T06:41:33.713-06:002012-04-28T06:41:33.713-06:00I lived in DC for 32 years so am quite versed in t...I lived in DC for 32 years so am quite versed in these subtleties. Thanks for your blog.John Bijarneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-52454426331937428492012-04-27T06:34:12.026-06:002012-04-27T06:34:12.026-06:00Thanks John. I've never been to DC and don...Thanks John. I've never been to DC and don't know one Cathedral from the other. I liked the police tape though.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-15566105272141784582012-04-27T06:32:48.709-06:002012-04-27T06:32:48.709-06:00Invictus, one should also not use the existence of...Invictus, one should also not use the existence of this imperfection of people as an excuse to tolerate and even promote hypocrites and truly anti social men just because we've been told the magic still works in spite of them.<br /><br />Most people who read this blog have gotten past the kind of circular reasoning you use in another post in which you say rejecting 'Christ's doctrines' is rejecting Christ and is rejecting the Church. <br /><br />Christ didn't leave any written doctrines. All we have is his commands to love God and each other like ourselves and other concepts such leaders of people should be servants to the servants. Doctrines are from the Church and they have frequently not withstood the test of time. When the Vatican insists on continuously confusing and blurring the line between themselves and Jesus, it becomes very irritating. They are not Jesus and Jesus is not them.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-76909132642634289852012-04-26T09:44:19.689-06:002012-04-26T09:44:19.689-06:00I'm glad we can agree that one shouldn't e...I'm glad we can agree that one shouldn't expect perfection from any human. That is why I cannot, in good conscience, unconditionally obey/agree with the decisions of the Vatican.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02873593983431589723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-25729762673427716352012-04-26T07:17:39.307-06:002012-04-26T07:17:39.307-06:00The pic is of the Episcopal cathedral of Sts. Pete...The pic is of the Episcopal cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul called the National Cathedral. Michael Bransfield was rector at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception and serves on its board, also called the National Cathedral for Catholics, declared a minor basilica by JP II.John Bijarneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-41464267472533217482012-04-26T01:31:55.409-06:002012-04-26T01:31:55.409-06:00The Church has never abused children. Child-abuser...The Church has never abused children. Child-abusers have managed to get into the Church (in equal or lesser proportion than they have managed to get into protestant sects, other religious groups, schools, and youth organisations).<br /><br />You shouldn't be in a Church out of the expectation that it and all the people in it are perfect and flawless (remember that of all the disciples, <i>Peter</i> was chosen to lead after Christ's ascension?), but because it is faithful to the teaching entrusted to it and because it alone stands up in the world to share that teaching.<br /><br />One should be careful not to be like the Donatists, and to accept that the people (and the Church) do not exist in a state of Godly perfection, but that they exist in the world as flawed, distinguishing themselves by their purpose and their faith, by their love.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-78370785759110768752012-04-25T14:17:39.003-06:002012-04-25T14:17:39.003-06:00But they have been in error- repeatedly- throughou...But they have been in error- repeatedly- throughout history. Again, not that they(the Magisterium) haven't done good as well. Ultimately, they are human. Just like the rest of us. What greater rejection of Christ is there than the decades- long abuse of children? I'm really asking a question here. I need to know how I can stay in a church that repeatedly does unethical things. Repeatedly as in hundreds and hundreds of years of unethical things. Certainly the Holy Spirit is present in the Catholic Church, right?But these are mortal men running things, and it seems ther ought to be some check upon the absolute power that is the Magisterium. How is corruption consistent with Christ? How is persistent corruption and damage perpetuated by the Magisterium not a rejection of Christ?<br />I definitely agree that a structure along with clearly defined procedures are needed, particularly in an organization the size of the Church. But that does not mean that the structure we currently have is the apprpriate one.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02873593983431589723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-15232626083916583972012-04-25T12:51:26.415-06:002012-04-25T12:51:26.415-06:00But if you reject Christ's doctrines, you reje...But if you reject Christ's doctrines, you reject Christ, if you reject Christ, you are not in the Church.<br /><br />This is why such lay-led democratisations are risky, and why attacking the hierarchy is risky. Because in doing so, you open up space for a rejection of Christ and a falling away from the Church.<br /><br />And we shouldn't forget that although the Holy Spirit was sent throughout the world to all peoples, the assurance of protection from error was only offered to those on the rock.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-79877914061023054192012-04-25T12:11:48.917-06:002012-04-25T12:11:48.917-06:00'You' do not stop the breakdown of the Chu...'You' do not stop the breakdown of the Church, neither does Colleen, the hierarchy or the pope. The Holy Spirit does, and I would not presume to place limits on what or through whom the Holy Spirit would act. Nor would I insist the the Holy Spirit needs The Vatican through which to speak to individual conscience in matters of acts or of faith.<br />VeronicaT'Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14497973041430354008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-89534805388236699852012-04-25T00:45:38.155-06:002012-04-25T00:45:38.155-06:00How can you keep the structure of the Church and p...How can you keep the structure of the Church and protect the doctrines of the Church if you don't have the hierarchy?<br /><br />What would stop the Church fissioning into myriad little rafts like the protestant sects?Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-59802085841795235602012-04-24T20:47:06.367-06:002012-04-24T20:47:06.367-06:00Erin, this is the best I can do for you, link to m...Erin, this is the best I can do for you, link to my own original posting about Sr Brink's address. The link with in the post which used to work, no longer does. Isn't that interesting.<br /><br />http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.com/2009/04/catholic-sojourner-and-lcwr.htmlcolkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-19098082754392032002012-04-24T18:21:26.855-06:002012-04-24T18:21:26.855-06:00Every link I have tried to Sr. Brink's talk is...Every link I have tried to Sr. Brink's talk is brokenErinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02873593983431589723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-22430380040914054192012-04-24T18:08:43.671-06:002012-04-24T18:08:43.671-06:00Thanks! Hope to read after I get my little ones in...Thanks! Hope to read after I get my little ones in bed. I have a Kindle, guess I could transfer the Handbook.<br /><br />Also wondering what, if anything, else there is to be done about this situation (for the layperson). Any ideas?Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02873593983431589723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-81171747858868557212012-04-24T16:10:18.249-06:002012-04-24T16:10:18.249-06:00Erin, here is a start to some of the info you'...Erin, here is a start to some of the info you've asked about:<br />http://www.uscatholic.org/blog/2012/04/half-truths-and-innuendo-about-leadership-conference-women-religious<br /><br />I have downloaded a copy of the Systems Thinking Handbook from the LCWR website but haven't had time yet to start reading it. Come to think of it, I should transfer that file to my Kindle now...T'Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14497973041430354008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-58705610352783006932012-04-24T15:21:20.741-06:002012-04-24T15:21:20.741-06:00Colleen,
Do you know whether any of the 'probl...Colleen,<br />Do you know whether any of the 'problematic' speeches, documents, publications, etc. that the CDF based their mandate upon have been made available to the public? I think it is interesting that all we really know is what the CDF says was a problem, we don't really have any specific examples, taken in context, of what they are referring to.<br /><br />Oh- and Invictus, I am all for keeping the structure and doctrine of the church. But not for a clerical body in which all the power for resides, particularly when there is no check upon that power AND when the lay people seem to equate obedience to that body to obedience to Christ. The Magisterium has a poor track record of Christ- like decisions. Like a centuries- long poor track record. Not that their haven't been good things as well, but the magnitude of the bad stuff is a bit staggering.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02873593983431589723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-7241735465577832712012-04-24T14:12:23.003-06:002012-04-24T14:12:23.003-06:00What would a "lay synod" decide? And how...What would a "lay synod" decide? And how would it enact it? And how would it safeguard itself against errors?Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-64700533578633166762012-04-24T14:10:36.397-06:002012-04-24T14:10:36.397-06:00I'm new to their existence, and their website ...I'm new to their existence, and their website doesn't seem to be working, so I'll have to leave that to one side for now.<br /><br />If the Church was really about consensus rather than truth, then it would have lost all of its doctrine by now. It would have become pagan in the early medieval era, it would have become protestant in the reformation, it would have rejected all truth and certainty with the intellectual waves of modernism and postmodernism.<br /><br />The Church exists through consensus in the true sense of agreement, of 'consent', rather than through consensus in terms of compromise. The Church exists because we consent to Catholic doctrine, because we agree with its truths, and not because we have fought to have our own little imprint made upon it, thus feeling we can claim it as our own project.<br /><br />After all, if you cut out the hierarchy, if you cut out the established bones of the Church, you give free rein not only to these erroneous groups you favour, who advocate priestesses, gay marriage, abortions, contraceptions, sterilisations, relativisms, neopaganisms and all the rest.<br /><br />You give equal free rein to those other erroneous groups, who would have us transformed into a global Westboro Baptist Church.<br /><br />Just because the hierarchy resists those fringe extremists of whom you approve, doesn't mean they don't resist those fringe extremists of whom you so violently disapprove.<br /><br />Without a hierarchy, there can be no security for our doctrines, no safety for the future, no foundation for our progress.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-26016039004341779762012-04-24T14:01:04.698-06:002012-04-24T14:01:04.698-06:00Colleen, your comment above prompts a couple of th...Colleen, your comment above prompts a couple of thoughts. <br /><br />After the Vatican Council II there were forums promoted by the Council that attempted to preserve the openness and more democratic processes experienced by that world gathering of bishops in Vatican Council II. There would be Synods of Bishops which would meet periodically, and there would be national conferences of bishops. Under the last two popes both of these structures have proved too threatening. The result of the world Synod of Bishops has been that the agendas have been controlled and set by the pope who would always have the final edit of any document produced. <br /><br />In the United States the struggle began with the national conference of bishops, after a decent start, when the bishops felt compelled no longer to issue their own documents on their authority, but decided everything had to go to Rome before even the a national group of bishops could say anything.<br /><br />Thus ended the hope that even within the clerical system there could be any kind of openness or forward movement.<br /><br />Here is another thought. In recent years Call To Action has promoted lay synods. This is a terrific idea in my opinion. I think Call To Action even had materials on how to go about setting up and organizing a lay synod in a diocese. Well, guess what? Some bishops when they heard about this said: “You can’t call a synod without ME.” Well, I think we are seeing that: “Yes they can” and the present earthquake will shake the good ole boy clerical system to its foundations.<br /><br />As you would say: "It's about time".wild hairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08464835061893041481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-26673032656441683092012-04-24T11:56:48.816-06:002012-04-24T11:56:48.816-06:00Invictus I think that's one of the problems th...Invictus I think that's one of the problems the Vatican has with the LCWR itself, not the congregations. The LCWR represents an alternative goveernance structure which is very democratic and works very well. One of the issues the CDF has with the LCWR, and I haven't mentioned it yet, is their Leadership training process and manual. It's conceptual basis is far more in line with the idea of servant leadership than anything in our seminaries. It's also based on the best social research on effective leadership and consensus building.<br /><br />This is paradigm is very different from the direction the last two papacies have taken the Church. The Vatican is centralizing all authority rather than attempting to build any kind of meaningful consensus. This is very much the opposite of the idea of subsidiarity as taught at Vatican II.<br /><br />For myself, I think the Church would be better off with a hierarchy situated in a group structure, rather than individual clerical titles. In other words a global type structure based in LCWR organization would hold authority and members would be elected by regions or whatever, and be subject to a term limit of some sort. Participation in this group or it's subsidiaries, would not result in any permanent high falutin' clerical title and would be open to all laity as well as ordained ministers.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-48150412105751534912012-04-24T11:38:40.661-06:002012-04-24T11:38:40.661-06:00Basic premise: "This clerical system has to g...Basic premise: "This clerical system has to go."<br /><br />What, seriously, would you want to replace the hierarchy with? Go on, play Jesus for a moment and let us know.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.com