tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post6195708750550399550..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Cardinal Schonborn More Or Less Says No, But I Still Take Hopecolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-55266632973816490252011-09-19T16:30:43.087-06:002011-09-19T16:30:43.087-06:00I am at a complete loss to understand why so many ...I am at a complete loss to understand why so many reports on this affair are headlined "Cardinal shuts the door on reform", or "No hope for reformists", or the like.<br /><br />I have gone through the original full text of his detailed response several times, and find no hint of any confrontational approach. Reports of follow-up interbiews suggest a garder line, but this is also misleading. In warning that active disobedience will lead to "conflict" with the church as a whole, or that he is unable to change the rules on celibacy, he is doing no more than stating the obvious.<br /><br />He is not slamming any doors on anything. Instead, he makes it clear that in Austria, his own area of jurisdiction, there is already an extensive program of reform under way, and that he joins with others in wanting more. The fundamental disagreement here is not on the need for reform, which Cardinal and priests agree on, but on how to achieve it, within the bounds of the possible.<br /><br />What is notably absent, and which should give us all cause for hope, is an insistence on the importance of continued dialogue and shared responsibility, rather than the usual whip-cracking that we are accustomed to seeing from the Vatican and its apparatchiks.Terence Weldonhttp://queeringthechurch.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-2297964738035417452011-09-18T11:47:25.509-06:002011-09-18T11:47:25.509-06:00Some Wandering Thoughts
If Benedict would truly w...Some Wandering Thoughts<br /><br />If Benedict would truly want to shine a light in the darkness of the world with the light of Christ, love and mercy that is Christ-like, forgiving even those who he supposes persecute him, in his case "liberals" - he would stand out in history as he might truly desire. The light that anyone receives in the form of divine grace seems relative to one's humility towards Christ, themselves and their neighbor. Benedict seems to lack such grace by denying the grace in his supposed enemies.<br /><br />Then again, perhaps his "light" flickers to such an extent that he is too apt to drown out the colors. <br /><br />Any "light" that any of us have does not come by our own wishes. Paul the Apostle has already made that clear. The RCC truly needs a Paul, or Paula's, to bring the Love of God into this world.<br /><br />Butterfly<br />word verif is prizessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-22227492874923271782011-09-18T10:19:22.405-06:002011-09-18T10:19:22.405-06:00Dennis, I can't disagree with your analysis. I...Dennis, I can't disagree with your analysis. I also believe for many many Catholics, unless a leader like Schonborn leads them to a new rebirth without the Vatican, they will continue to support the existing structure, either by their passive resistance, or leaving Roman Catholicism with Rome still in charge.<br /><br />For whatever reason, guys like Schonborn who know Benedict is taking the Church into oblivion, still think change can be effected from with in. Maybe he has a safe deposit box full of nasty secrets--or something. :)colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-47538542940338797542011-09-18T09:15:02.844-06:002011-09-18T09:15:02.844-06:00Because of the way leadership is selected in the R...Because of the way leadership is selected in the RCC, it will be very difficult to move toward much truth. There is far too much centralization of power and the Vatican has been corrupt since its very beginnings. It once operated in a world that was organized around this type of centralization of power and it caused a lack of progress and "Dark Ages." Today we see that authoritarianism seems often not to last into a second generation in most authoritarian governances. NOT TRUE FOR THE RCC.<br /><br />I think if we look at various Protestant religions and I am thinking of the Seventh Day Adventists, Lutherans, Methodists, Libertarians, Presbyterians and others we see effective advocates for the health and well being of the people of the world. The problems in Protestantism like those in the RCC, are dogmatic authoritarians. <br /><br />The idea that secular knowledge and relativism are in any way wrong is a good example of what is wrong in the RCC. Our church has been fighting these for over 100 years like Quixote windmills. The church would be much better off realizing that scientists and theologians are inspired by the Holy Spirit as much as are priests and therefore secular ideas must be thought about and recognized. As far as relativism goes, the church begins with the premise of mortal vs venial sins. Some wrongs are relatively worse than others. Then of course there is Einstein's theory of relativity. The church loves to sum relativism and secularism up as if they are some part of an evil modernism that believed truth could always be discovered if we as humans try hard enough. Well over twenty years ago the thought of the world moved into a post modern period. I think the ideas of Einstein helped when he said the more we understand, the more we know that there is much more to comprehend. <br /><br /><br />"There was an extended period of time in the last two years where I seriously wondered if I was going to have the patience to outlast what seemed to be Vatican intransigence to deal with the problems effecting the Church in the West and South America. The issue that made this period of official obduracy so difficult was that I never believed the exodus of clergy and laity out of Catholicism was due to a lack of faith in Jesus or the influence of secularism, but it was due to the very real feeling of not being heard and that leading to feelings of powerlessness and that finally leading to indifference. I also never lost sight of the fact that abuse victims were treated exactly the same, had many more legitimate reasons not to be treated this way, and that indifference was not an option for them. There were many times I wondered why I kept on keeping on."<br /><br />It is not a matter of enough patience of outlasting, "Vatican intransigence," it is a matter of changing the way the Vatican leadership is formed. Unless the whole question of changing this authoritarian leadership formation is challenged successfully, the People of God will not have theologic, scientific, philosophic, or any other input to the Catholic worlds moral teachings trough this group of rouge men. Unless the whole organization could look for ways to attempt to act as authoritative rather than authoritarian, Colleen, you are Waiting for Godot. <br /><br />RCC leadership has always been authoritarian and this fact precludes a better ethic of authoritative understanding. The RCC is simply not going to make the changes necessary to get itself out of these problems!rdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-90712625175731496242011-09-18T07:58:06.111-06:002011-09-18T07:58:06.111-06:00John, if the Church does not stand as an effective...John, if the Church does not stand as an effective voice and hand for the powerless, then it has no business surviving into any future.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-53302896378739322332011-09-18T07:56:33.759-06:002011-09-18T07:56:33.759-06:00Jayden, I agree with you that Schonborn is truly s...Jayden, I agree with you that Schonborn is truly spiritual and listening to a Voice other than Benedict's. As far as one man making great changes, it's possible but only if he makes massive changes in the Vatican from day one and then calls for a Vatican III. Our hypothetical Pope would absolutely have to know where his global bishops stood on many issues. <br /><br />One thing we do know for sure is a significant percentage of bishops say one thing in private and another thing in public. While that kind of thing is going on there can be no spiritual integrity in Catholicism.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-50430262492203023112011-09-18T07:50:46.952-06:002011-09-18T07:50:46.952-06:00Dennis, what can the Vatican realistically do if m...Dennis, what can the Vatican realistically do if more and more areas take up the Austrian priests call for disobedience? They did not call for a schism but for disobedience to some aspects of Catholic discipline. Schonborn can threaten disciplinary action, and then make sure it takes years to carry out. Fr Bourgeious' disciplinary action has been going on without resolution for three years. Three years is a long time and lots of things can happen. It's plenty of time for more and more people to take the same path.<br />Realistically the Vatican controls some bishops, but not all of them and some of them like Bishop Vera of Saltillo have come back from the Vatican woodshed with his commitment to social justice issues unchanged.<br /><br />For me though, the real problem for the Vatican is not with Northern Bishops, it's with South American bishops. I am not the least bit surprised the WYD is in Brazil and the time frame move up. That there are virtually no South American bishops in the Vatican curia says to me that Benny and the boys can't trust them. Same thing with Africa and the Orient. Benny is running a very Eurocentric regime and unfortunately for him, the Church is hardly Eurocentric anymore. When there are more Chinese Catholics who go to Mass on Sunday than all of Europe, major changes are coming just because of numbers.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-17625391335502610262011-09-18T07:09:03.854-06:002011-09-18T07:09:03.854-06:00I like the careful analysis here, especially about...I like the careful analysis here, especially about how continuing unity can keep the church as an effective advocate for the powerless. I do wonder if it is possible given how the college of cardinals gets stacked against reform during the current pontiff's term.<br />I think actors exist in the Vatican who will do anything to continue in power even if it means becoming a bastion for the traditionalists alone and separating itself from the world with a severe, rigid doctrinal moat.John Bijarneyhttp://www.bijarney.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-39736943366712438432011-09-18T06:38:18.290-06:002011-09-18T06:38:18.290-06:00Fascinating story, I'm following it closely. T...Fascinating story, I'm following it closely. Thanks for the updates! Schonborn is a genuinely spiritual man (one who truly listens to the Spirit) trapped in an impossible situation. It would be naive, I suppose, to suggest he might effect great reforms if he were Pope or that one man alone could make much difference within the Vatican, but the 'eternal child' within me is hoping this does in fact take place. Perhaps this conflict is the trial that precedes that eventuality.Richard Demmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17116799651068476195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-17581373205951318572011-09-18T01:28:32.177-06:002011-09-18T01:28:32.177-06:00I am not certain that you are correct, Colleen, if...I am not certain that you are correct, Colleen, if you believe that "a Roman Catholic Church" because of size will be able to make good ethical differences in the world. This church is set up so that an authoritarian leadership is in control and because of the pure numbers of very dogmatically conservative cardinals and bishops, it seems to me that the moral actions these men are asking for are certainly not ethical. To replace this leadership without extreme change, change that most of the leading curia would not agree with or to. <br /><br />I think that the only way to get more ethical spirituality into catholicism is to in fact not follow this leadership where ever it takes us. This more than likely is already leading to local churches. Perhaps not one Catholic church in a country but several different ones. I think it is necessary for this to happen so people can study and understand truth of and in their lives. The RCC leadership will not tolerate this kind of truth seeking as it believes some how that it is the source of revelation of truth. <br /><br />Finally, I agree we are all flawed but especially Benedict is exceptionally flawed as a theologian and leader. So I think the better course will be for more catholic churches not one. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.com