tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post6217310752246665434..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Seriously, A Different Take On Humanae Vitaecolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-86779410020745642422008-07-27T11:09:00.000-06:002008-07-27T11:09:00.000-06:00I've had sporadic computer problems for days now--...I've had sporadic computer problems for days now--strange ones that seem to originate with my service provider. So only now able to log on and catch up.<BR/><BR/>Butterfly, I agree that it would be bizarre if the church could have such decisive influence in our ostensibly secular-pluralistic society.<BR/><BR/>But I do think that the influence of the church as an institutional power reaches deep into our economic and governmental structures. Somehow, the Catholic church is seen as a bastion of the "values" that neocons believe are being whittled away at in contemporary society.<BR/><BR/>As a result, it's hard to get balanced media coverage, even to get the media to touch stories they know about, which reflect negatively on the church. The primary reason the 2002 abuse story broke open was 1) the paper in Boston dared to defy the church to report on the story, and 2) the discovery process in the litigation phase showed so many links around the nation that it was impossible to ignore the story.<BR/><BR/>Which, in a way, points to the power the church has had everywhere in the nation to keep these stories hidden for a long time!<BR/><BR/>Colleen, the Satan remark touches home in a powerful way. As you know, Steve's father is now dying. As this happens, one of his siblings is concerned to keep Satan out of the family's house, and wanted a crucifix taped onto his headboard yesterday for that purpose.<BR/><BR/>At one level, it makes sense that people rely on tried and true symbols and rituals at such a difficult time. But to conclude that Satan has power in a house where people have prayed for generations, and that death is somehow an opportunity for Satan to come through the door: this is theological troubling, and is causing Steve a lot of pain.<BR/><BR/>I think the past two papacies have done a superb job of reintroducing the Satan scare to the church. And I think we may see people reverting to many of those rituals of demonization and expulsion that have been so troubling before at change points in Christian history.<BR/><BR/>Carl, I think your question to me may be about the video? I found it deeply moving. I think there are interconnections in nature that we just can't see, with our eyes that have been blinded by rationalism. And I think animals are more intelligent and often more altruistic than the dominion theologies have let us realize.William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-30013534612748093792008-07-27T10:58:00.000-06:002008-07-27T10:58:00.000-06:00John, all of those things that you say have been t...John, all of those things that you say have been the way in the past, which is why this situation is so amazing. The fact that it happened differently, I take as a sign that the transformations we are each working for are unfolding.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-23737961729137072042008-07-27T08:53:00.000-06:002008-07-27T08:53:00.000-06:00Carl, my thoughts about the lioness were first of ...Carl, my thoughts about the lioness were first of her acceptance of her mate's friends and second, both lions must have just eaten a very big meal.<BR/><BR/>I am wondering if they left a heap of food around for the lion to eat before the lion picked up on his friends scent.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-67674618422091997272008-07-27T08:39:00.000-06:002008-07-27T08:39:00.000-06:00John, it was still a cool video. We used to live ...John, it was still a cool video. We used to live next door to a raptor rehabilitator and when my daughter was about eight she got to feed a mature Bald Eagle. She was awed and a little terrified. The Eagle opened up to it's full wing span when she brought by a bucket of live mice. The wing span was quite a bit longer than she was tall. It's a memory she will never forget.<BR/><BR/>Carl, the dialogue in the NCR may be more significant than we think. The Cafe has spawned more and more progressive chat rooms. Something one didn't see three or four years ago, and it's sort of a central starting point for conversations on websites all over the world. It always amazes me how many people outside the US are reading this blog. The Internet is a fascinating tool. Truly a universal tool.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-72948642397466783942008-07-27T07:57:00.000-06:002008-07-27T07:57:00.000-06:00Carl,I am an avid outdoors person -- wilderness ca...Carl,<BR/><BR/>I am an avid outdoors person -- wilderness camping, hiking, canoeing, etc. And I have a general Franciscan sense of nature, always feeling closer to God and my true Self in the wilderness. But I don't have any developed skill in interpreting signs of nature, so I'm more ears than feedback on these matters.<BR/><BR/>The film was touching. Lions are highly social animals, so I'm not completely surprised he bonded with the boys, or that he conveyed to the lioness that these were friends.<BR/><BR/>However, no state today (and probably no European country) allows private holding of wild animals (licenses for zoos and wildlife rehabilitators excepted). It's not fair for the animals, and it's not safe for the public. Many or most wild animals will revert to their instinctual behavior when they mature, notwithstanding good human intentions.<BR/><BR/>This lion was fortunate he was able to survive on his own in the wild. Many reintroduced animals can not survive, especially if they were removed from their mothers at a young age. Most hunting skills are learned. And these boys were very lucky the lion remembered them. Many humans would have been attacked under the same circumstances.jmKelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10552857462873824802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-28457731342993854052008-07-26T18:59:00.000-06:002008-07-26T18:59:00.000-06:00Butterfly, what did you think about the lioness? ...Butterfly, what did you think about the lioness? Wasnt that amazing that she did not attack. <BR/><BR/>Colleen, in some traditions, the west signifies the harvest, a time to gather the fruits of our labor in preparation for the winter rest, which goes along with what you said.<BR/><BR/>Deer signify gentleness. Interesting that there were two males in the herd, as males typically are solitary and stay seperate from the herd and from other males. Interesting too, the diversity in the group you saw. The north to south direction is also interesting, as north is the rest and south is growth, where the spring rebirth bears fruit. It also represents a metaphysical journey away from darkness into the light.<BR/><BR/>As you said, a lot to ponder, and my sense is both of these are events are prophetic, for us individually and for the church as a whole. <BR/><BR/>William, John what is your take on this?COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-42854890228722714202008-07-26T14:37:00.000-06:002008-07-26T14:37:00.000-06:00Bill - "But along with the unmasking will come som...Bill - "But along with the unmasking will come some really overt attempts to control and coerce, and to grab the reins of power from secular governments, when this seems feasible."<BR/><BR/>That is an awful thought to think that the American Revolution, freedom of conscience and freedom of religion, the Constitution, could be dumped for some form of government in cahoots with the Church. But, this is in essence what has been done during the Bush years in office. It reminds me that Hitler who was Catholic was not excommunicated, but the communist were excommunicated and GW Bush and the war-mongerers and their ilk seem to be the preferred leaders for the trads and the Def while Obama and the Democrats are labeled as the source to all our problems of lower morals. Interesting how they are using each other and undermining each other at the same time. <BR/><BR/>I am thinking that the reason for the Church to be against contraception is to increase the Catholic population. That might be the only way they'll get new "recruits" or baptized and indoctrinated to hate freedom of conscience.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-70069480788623895342008-07-26T14:20:00.000-06:002008-07-26T14:20:00.000-06:00Carl, thanks for the link. That was beautiful... I...Carl, thanks for the link. That was beautiful... I bawled my eyes out - perhaps I'm wishing for a reunion someday with my pet who was almost as big as this lion.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-65212783079269642122008-07-26T13:26:00.000-06:002008-07-26T13:26:00.000-06:00I found this video link on the Conversations with ...I found this video link on the Conversations with God page on Beliefnet. It is really amazing, <BR/><BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adYbFQFXG0UCOL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-59390726550112054972008-07-26T11:54:00.000-06:002008-07-26T11:54:00.000-06:00I keep asking myself what's really going on here? ...I keep asking myself what's really going on here? If you look at the sexual morality teachings the end result is more babies. NFP gives one a token feeling that they have some control and freedom from the baby thing, but morally you still have to approach it as a procreative act and stay open to the possibilities. Why is making babies central to the agenda?<BR/><BR/>The demonstrations in the Phillipines are most interesting. The form of birth control used by the poor in the Phillipines is abortion. Almost 1/3 of poor women surveyed by reproductive workers admit they have had one or more abortions. The interesting thing is the the rich upper middle class, who are supplying the money for this current Church crusade, can't believe this is happening even when the poor in their own parishes tell them.<BR/><BR/>Bill, you and I are on the same wave length when it comes to WYD in Madrid. It will be more or less used as a weapon against the Zapatero government.<BR/><BR/>Ostensibly the Church's agenda is to keep Christ in European culture, but why join hands with godless capitalism? Because that's where your money is coming from?<BR/><BR/>Why is the Catholic mass of humanity being educated to stay within family confines, drilled to obedience, and not just expected, but demanded to be open to reproduction? None of these have anthing to do with the tenets of core Christianity. Jesus actually said give up your families and follow me. <BR/><BR/>Why the sudden need to see Satan operating everywhere and in everything? Because the Satan card is a really good one to pull when you're losing control. The ultimate last ditch atavistic fear card? <BR/><BR/>What does Benedict really think he is working towards in all of his geopolitical maneuvering? The Kingdom of God on Earth, or is he still playing the weird geopolitical games JPII did. The one in which JP saw the Roman Catholic Church as the third player with a legitimate world view for the good of humanity--and the worldwide infrastructure to pull it off. The first power being the Capitalist West and the Second being Marxist/Lenninism. JPII was certainly effective in bringing down Marxist/Lenninism, but also seems to have unleashed even more world domination by capitalist interests at the heads of Western Governments. <BR/><BR/>The problem with JP's analysis is he didn't know what to do about China and must have thought the Islamic world was in the pockets of his allied Western Political Operatives. Big mistake that. Western Capitalism has always reinvigorated it's capitalist financial monopoly through the war machine, and there must always be an enemy over which to justify the military largesse for the masses whose tax pockets are being picked. Iraq is almost too blatant to believe.<BR/><BR/>What is Benedict's real agenda? One can never forget that in both Benedict and JPII there is this weird pious streak along side their intellects. For JPII it was his fascination with Fatima, and now Benedict is off to Lourdes. Perhaps in those visions from illiterate peasants we might find the clues to the Vatican agenda.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-3990916971590050152008-07-26T11:14:00.000-06:002008-07-26T11:14:00.000-06:00Carl, you say, "This is not just about what is goi...Carl, you say, "This is not just about what is going on within the church, but we are seeing increasingly agressive attempts by the leadership to exert its authority into the population in general."<BR/><BR/>Yes, I think that's absolutely right. The choice to hold WYD next in Madrid is a deliberate in-your-face tactic to encourage the kind of challenges to secular government that have already been mounted against the Spanish government.<BR/><BR/>Everywhere you turn, this is now going on, from the Philippines, where they're trying to keep contraceptives unavailable, to Spain and Italy, where they've staged those big "pro-family" gatherings, to our country, where the religious right not only hopes to turn back Roe v. Wade, but also to outlaw contraception and return women to the kitchen and nursery.<BR/><BR/>I, too, would have hoped that the reaction to Humanae vitae could have paved the way for a direct challenge to clericalism. But instead, we seem to have a church that is ever more clericalized, with the attitude in the center that anyone who doesn't like it can just leave.<BR/><BR/>I think we're going to be living through some interesting days in the near future. My bones tell me there are some turning points at hand, and much is going to be unsettled--and much will also be unmasked. But along with the unmasking will come some really overt attempts to control and coerce, and to grab the reins of power from secular governments, when this seems feasible.William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-46737693086576924902008-07-26T09:05:00.000-06:002008-07-26T09:05:00.000-06:00I've been thinking about the NCR issue. I ran acr...I've been thinking about the NCR issue. <BR/><BR/>I ran across a post on one of the tables that stated the the banter between HT and me was irrelevant to the issues of the local congregation. On another post HT indicated that he is largely alienated in his diocese. Interesting. There are so many divisions in so many areas of the church, including the bishopric, I'm inclinded to think that the dialogue on NCR Cafe in the grand scheme is really not that significant "right now". <BR/><BR/>NCR reporting of the Sr Louise incident on the other hand has generated a lot of heat on the St. Louis diocese, and is taking a lot of heat from the diocese as well. Yesterday I read an article where the St. Louis diocese issued a response to NCR's reporting, basically blasting them for poor journalistic integrity. Their silence may be more a reflection of that than anything else. <BR/><BR/>Bad journalism or coverup? It is eerily reminiscent of Watergate, which interestingly enough happened at the same time as Humanae Vitae, and ultimately destroyed confidence in the US presidency. Do you suppose we are seeing a similar event being played out now within the church?<BR/><BR/>There is an NCR article on the Canadian poll stating the majority of anglicans are in favor of women priests etc. Even though I considered the angicans to be a little more evolved than the catholic church on this issue, after reading the posts, it appears that the anglican church is being torn apart just as much as the catholic church is.<BR/><BR/>There was also an article on beliefnet indicating that the ACLU is now involved in an attempt to remove prayer from military academy meals.<BR/><BR/>It seems the harder the the religious right pushes, the harder they are getting pushed.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-52107399069323100762008-07-26T08:10:00.000-06:002008-07-26T08:10:00.000-06:00William, interesting analogy, gloves coming off. ...William, interesting analogy, gloves coming off. Started me thinking. This is not just about what is going on within the church, but we are seeing increasingly agressive attempts by the leadership to exert its authority into the population in general. <BR/><BR/>One thing they are ignoring is the inbred revulsion we have in this country for anything that restricts freedom. You would think that the response within the US catholic population to Humanae Vitae would have awakened them to that, but apparantely not. Roughly<BR/>70 percent of our population is non-catholic and the vast majority of them believe that the catholic church is the beast of revelation and that the pope is the antichrist. When the gloves come off, it is not inconceivable that those same gloves could become very dangerous projectiles redirected back at the Vatican.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-75909065723987988992008-07-26T07:28:00.000-06:002008-07-26T07:28:00.000-06:00Carl, that's very interesting. The snake represen...Carl, that's very interesting. The snake represents rebirth into new levels of creativity and wisdom. This was emphasized by having both a dead snake and a live snake.<BR/><BR/>The Western direction means moving into the feminine traits of intuition, dreaming, and higher compassion, vision quests and journeys.<BR/><BR/>The three strikes is also a number associated with mystical transformation, or moving up the spiritual food chain.<BR/><BR/>If I were you I'd be looking for transformative change in creative, spiritual ways. A transition of sorts from one spiritual understanding to higher spiritual understanding.<BR/><BR/>This morning before I signed on I had 6 deer in my front yard. I live in a mobile home park in the middle of the city, so this is a little unusual. One was a five point buck in velvet, one a spike with one spike broken and sideways, one a barren doe, and one a doe with two fawns. They came from the North and went South. I have never seen a group of mixed deer quite like this in the middle of the summer. Usually the sexes are separate, especially does with young fawns. The fawns were still in spots.<BR/><BR/>It'll take me all day to figure out what this means!colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-73969231345955349062008-07-26T07:04:00.000-06:002008-07-26T07:04:00.000-06:00Butterfly, I've been wondering, too, if there's so...Butterfly, I've been wondering, too, if there's some high-level pressure to attack NCR. I have been having the same feeling that, having tried unsuccessfully to shut the conversation down by singling out targets on the cafe, those intent on censorship may have turned to more powerful channels.<BR/><BR/>I get the strong feeling we're right on the cusp of a movement of tremendous suppression that will cross denominational boundaries, and that is all about trying to maintain the dominance of men who present themselves as straight in the clerical structures of the churches. I think we may see more and more overt attempts to oppress dissenters and shut down dissenting voices.<BR/><BR/>Carl, I see the desperation, too, and I think it's going to be more apparent as the gloves come off and the oppression becomes more overt now. <BR/><BR/>JM, interesting information about JPI's own background, which I hadn't read elsewhere. Makes me admire him even more.<BR/><BR/>Colleen, I think you are now hosting the new NCR cafe :-). Where else can we go for dialogue?<BR/><BR/>Did you all notice the similarity between Stafford's presentation of the 1960s, and Ratzinger's? Ratzinger has always maintained that what led him back to the fold--as in the yes-father fold of theologians--was the student unrest at Tubingen in the 1960s. <BR/><BR/>Stafford is essentially saying the same thing. A false alternative is set up between wild social chaos and the church that serenely says the same thing over and over. Seems like a very self-serving presentation of what happened in the 1960s.William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-43113333868466338782008-07-26T03:27:00.000-06:002008-07-26T03:27:00.000-06:00Coleen, this is not related to Humanae Vita (I don...Coleen, this is not related to Humanae Vita (I dont think), but I would like your take on it. <BR/><BR/>As you know, I pay attention to the "coincidences" especially when nature gives one. I've always paid close attention to animal spirits and there messages.<BR/><BR/>Last night when I was walking, the same path I have walked daily for 3+ years, two copperheads were on the path, 1 dead, recently killed, one very much alive. This is the first time I've crossed paths with one of these snakes in decades. <BR/><BR/>The live one was stretched out straight and motionless in the open across the path in front of me. It was pointing west. When I tried to coax if off the path with a stick, at first it didnt move, then it struck at the stick three times before finally leaving the path. These snakes are rarely found in the open, much less stretched out like this. Being exposed in the open is a behavior that is very out of character for them. A nasty disposition on the other hand, they are infamous for that.<BR/><BR/>Any thoughts?COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-47841608221877579712008-07-25T13:26:00.000-06:002008-07-25T13:26:00.000-06:00Paul VI never submitted Humanae Vitae to the full ...Paul VI never submitted Humanae Vitae to the full college of Bishops because there were serious doubts the bishops would approve it. So he went ahead and published it on his own.<BR/><BR/>This raises some interesting questions. Are the restrictions in Humanae Vitae considered infallibly binding or merely advisory? Can a doctrine be considered binding if there is disagreement between the pope and the majority of bishops? Not to mention the majority of the faithful?<BR/><BR/>The ultramontanists will argue that Humanae Vitae is a binding dogma of morals by virtue of the pope’s individual power to speak infallibly on such matters, even overriding the college of Bishops. <BR/><BR/>However, if you ask them about earlier papal pronouncements and encyclicals, such as those regarding the nature of the solar system, or Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors -- considered in their time to be binding matters of faith and morals -- the ultramontanists will split legal hairs to explain why these papal pronouncements are <I>not</I> infallible dogmas while Humanae Vitae is. “Situational ethics” indeed !<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, Paul’s successor, John Paul I, planned to reverse Paul VI’s restrictions on contraception in short order, but never lived to do so (which may have contributed to his sudden, untimely death). John Paul I, ne Albino Luciani, had been a life-long champion of rejected children, building a record number of orphanages and promoting expanded adoptions. He recognized the value of contraception in limiting the numbers of uncared-for children while discouraging abortions. And he recognized the unitive value of sexual expression even distinct from its procreative value.<BR/><BR/>-- John KjmKelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10552857462873824802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-77257029962642175922008-07-25T12:35:00.000-06:002008-07-25T12:35:00.000-06:00Has anyone noticed the desperation in all of these...Has anyone noticed the desperation in all of these events? Spam attacks, scapegoating, covert survellience, litigation, excommunication, political manipulation, bribery, nonsensical rhetoric, all are acts of desperation that are the symptomatic of a dying institution. <BR/><BR/>Karen Bishop has mentioned numerous times that these events are symptomatic of the widening gap between those who choose to live in the light of love and those who continue to choose to follow the path of darkness. The latter are desperately trying not just to hang on to the old ways, but to force the rest of us to do the same so that they wont have to admit their error. <BR/><BR/>The perspective that the article totally missed, Humanae Vitae was a gift of the Holy Spirit to demonstrate the fallacy of papal infallibility. It worked beautifully. The pedophile scandal was a gift of the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the depths of corruption and depravity that permeate the Magisterium. It also worked beautifully. The veil of secrecy that has sheltered the Vatican for millenia is dissolving daily. Over the last 40 years, confidence in the leadership of the church has evaporated not because of Humanae Vitae itself, but because it allowed us to see how much corruption there is in the leadership of the church.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-49135124152053307602008-07-25T11:16:00.000-06:002008-07-25T11:16:00.000-06:00Hi again Colleen, Your comment: {Apparently this c...Hi again Colleen, Your comment: {Apparently this climate of fear and mistrust was accelerated under JPII and now we have archbishops authorizing secret surveillance of their religious empoyees. Things have certainly improved.}<BR/><BR/>This is for what purpose for the archbishops? They don't seem to be too Christ centered to be employing such militaristic tactics. In the case of Burke vs Sr. Louise Lears video surveillance took place to then charge her. What's up the archbishop's sleeve depends on the archbishop and his agenda or theology.<BR/><BR/>I was thinking about NCRcafe and I wrote a letter to cafe management asking them "What's going on?" I asked them to please email the reason why there have been no new comments posted in almost a week.<BR/><BR/>My feeling on this after thinking more about it is that the Defers have decided that they can't get through to us and have given up on us and are going on to the bigger fish which is the publication itself. Whereas the trads would hammer at us, they are now focused on hammering the publication and possibly try to shut it down. Perhaps they've been sending in so much hate mail, as you said before, that their computers and staff can't handle the volume?<BR/><BR/>Maybe at the NCR publication they are having their own divisions schisms now too?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, it feels as if something has died at ncrcafe with no new comments.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.com