tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post644461418974421719..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: A Well Formed Conscience: The Topic Of The Daycolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-5397552692089160122012-01-30T13:52:42.316-07:002012-01-30T13:52:42.316-07:00Welllll uhhhh, Invictus: do you think Jesus would ...Welllll uhhhh, Invictus: do you think Jesus would prefer a mitre and a teleprompter ala Cardinal elect Dolan to appeal to a small coterie of money men?colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-91493799353864649162012-01-25T14:55:45.692-07:002012-01-25T14:55:45.692-07:00Invictus, Jesus would have revelled in the argumen...Invictus, Jesus would have revelled in the arguments, the debates, the discussion, just as he did when he was 12 year old Joshua. ( http://www.usccb.org/bible/lk/2:41 )<br /><br />How familiar it would be to engage in rabbinical debate on the law and ethics! Even today Jews prize intellectual discussion and education, as they did then. There was nothing mistaken or accidental about the Jewishness of Jesus, nor the fact that his followers referred to him as Rabbi. <br /><br />Oy vey<br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-23664826683137677142012-01-25T13:42:05.886-07:002012-01-25T13:42:05.886-07:00Why, Invictus... Whatever makes you think He would...Why, Invictus... Whatever makes you think He wouldn't have that sympathy? Or are you counting on it for yourself and hoping it extends to commenters too?T'Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14497973041430354008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-52093419091715109192012-01-25T11:25:48.661-07:002012-01-25T11:25:48.661-07:00Would Jesus have any great sympathy for snide blog...Would Jesus have any great sympathy for snide bloggers? <br /><br />I'm not convinced Jesus would sit behind a screen and complain constantly about the Church to a small coterie of yes-men.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-15281825630645381142012-01-24T19:49:35.009-07:002012-01-24T19:49:35.009-07:00And the rotten fruit is the revelation of a stifle...And the rotten fruit is the revelation of a stifled sense of spiritual growth and maturity that crops up along the spiritual path. As a young girl in Catholic school our religious teaching was about memorization of prayers mostly and that was pre-VII. So I don't want to hear about naysayers of Vatican II. The VI Church was enough to move me away from the Church at a young age, and VII was enough to pull my parents pretty much away from the Church. And yet, there are still miracles of faith that bring even the prodigal son back home. It's a constant recurring theme through the lives of many through the ages since Jesus. <br /><br />That is why I think that Colleen and I agree on the compassion being front and center as opposed to authoritariansm. Authoritarianism, imo, does not bring one to truthful and fruitful Faith close enough to allow God entrance by our own free will. Jesus' Apostles were not automatons. The compassion of God is so much more merciful than a law of the Church that demands obedience in a wrathful way and without compassion. That is where most religions fail in my opinion, at least in the past they have mightily proven they are capable of doing. Hence, the backlash of such religious force is an equal enemy in return, sort of a karma effect in opposition to another form of authoritarianism. WWII symbolizes such a battle in my thinking. Both Stalin and Hitler had their own brand of fear and that just leads to war, not to Jesus Christ. <br /><br />Pope JPII & BVXI were in a real sense cafeteria catholics of their day as Popes who were both fighters, and not in the healthiest way of the word fighting for the well being of all people and to live the Gospels. They took a side to the politics in the world instead of working out the side of God that their politics and world view and knee jerk reactions left out. <br /><br />ButterflyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-34962451388047179422012-01-24T19:02:32.669-07:002012-01-24T19:02:32.669-07:00I hear you Veronica. I can relate to the "qui...I hear you Veronica. I can relate to the "quick to anger and take offense" bit. It's the knee jerk reaction to a witness to ignorance and the painstaking effort of faith with compassion to get beyond that of which you speak. I don't see Benedict as a spawn of Satan, but his politics sure seems close enough as far as the rotten fruit it reveals & passes on for generations of people to suffer. <br /><br />ButterflyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-74405997891364661392012-01-24T16:27:38.504-07:002012-01-24T16:27:38.504-07:00Colleen, I very nearly tried to tie in IDIC in my ...Colleen, I very nearly tried to tie in IDIC in my last post as a more helpful theology than most of what I got from CCD classes. Back in the mid-70s it seemed the Catholic church was a far more positive and hopeful place than it has now become. At least it was in the very small slice of it that I experienced. Somehow I was taught the primacy of personal conscience before too much of the necessity of toeing somebody's 'more authoritative' line. As the hierarchy narrows down its focus to pray, pay and obey with the 'illumination' of heavy guilt as my expected role as a lay Catholic woman, it the the betrayal of that hope that I find most unsettling. IDIC still stands, perhaps because there is no line of authority to prescribe its betrayal. <br /><br />I don't describe myself as fixated on Star Trek, but it certainly has a great deal more positive influence on culture or even just pop-culture than the formal parts of the RCC. Is it the storytelling? I don't know. <br /><br />I know of at least one priest who seems to understand faith through the lens of Star Trek ideology. Although he does stay on the line the hierarchy expects of him it is also easy to see from his body language that his private beliefs cause him some struggle.<br /><br />Anyway, I could only see a way to tie it together if the post went on far too long.<br /><br />Butterfly, I am actually more in agreement with you than not. Apparently the wry tone of voice which imbued my 'more charitable moments' did not get through in my writing. And those moments are few and far between as I am rather quick to anger and take offense. But I do need those charitable moments too - they remind me that no matter how vehemently I might disagree with those whom society has placed as authorities, they too are God's children. It does me no good to think of them as akin to Satan's Spawn. I recognize in humility my own limitations and failures and inability to see the fullness of what God wants. I pray for them to do the same. I remind myself frequently to let God sort it out in Her own time. Rather than simply and personally applying St. Augustine's prescription. Of course if they strike first, my gloves are coming off. :)<br />VeronicaT'Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14497973041430354008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-8377493496958003012012-01-24T11:28:21.697-07:002012-01-24T11:28:21.697-07:00Colleen, I agree also with your comment here.
&qu...Colleen, I agree also with your comment here.<br /><br />"I have to keep reminding myself that our childhood, in which our brains get their initial training, in no way really prepared us for what we've experienced."<br /><br />I so much agree with that. What I've encountered is that just being obedient will eventually lead to disobedience because the formation and initial training was insufficient to aide in making wise choices in life, and therefore making a lot of mistakes and suffering from making those mistakes.<br /><br />It is interesting you bring up guilt. I always felt guilty about everything. Especially about things like racism and people starving in the world. It just never made sense to me that with so many Christians around that these would still be issues that are never really addressed. I feel guilty about that. I don't feel good about it at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-53370651795119871122012-01-24T11:05:02.837-07:002012-01-24T11:05:02.837-07:00TPel - Although I can agree with a lot of what you...TPel - Although I can agree with a lot of what you have related in your post, my post was more a reflection of Colleen's comment here:<br /><br />"The Church lost any claim to any kind of moral authority during WWII, and it's rapidly losing any claim for moral authority in rest of the world because of it's criminal handling of it's own morally depraved priests and it's continuing support for autocratic right wing ideologues in Africa and Latin America. Of course this is the kind of thing that happens when obedience to authority is given a higher place of importance than compassion towards one's fellow man."<br /><br />Regarding your last paragraph, I do not have a charitable view at all of world characters and political personalities that lead many astray and help to cause wars and terrible suffering and mayhem for millions of people. Perhaps that is selfish of me. <br /><br />If the leaders and spokesmen for all Catholics believe in an unmerciful God that desires for us to suffer, then they truly have not encountered the Jesus of the Gospels. <br /><br />Perhaps the truth is that they don't expect God to be who God truly is: Love. They are expecting something else, just as those who denied Jesus when he walked this Earth. They also were expecting something other than what they got. <br /><br />I believe the post I presented here provides a view of JPII and BXVI and what still seems to be a huge issue in the conscience of many in the Catholic Church who are still reacting to the past without truly having a real overview of the past and the views of that time prior to WWII that enabled Christians and Catholics to round up political foes, gays, Jews, whoever disagreed with them. The extreme right just does not get it. Shell-shock seems to portray perhaps the psychology. I don't know. I'm not a shrink. I just thought I would present this here for the experts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-48025886686199220412012-01-24T10:45:50.000-07:002012-01-24T10:45:50.000-07:00Veronica, my post for today addresses some of your...Veronica, my post for today addresses some of your points. The point you make about token efforts but not expecting to actually do anything to alleviate the vast poverty and suffering in areas of the world was my entire bitch about Mother Theresa. She felt no obligation to help change any of the conditions which produced the humanity she and her order dealt with, especially if doing so meant disobeying Vatican teaching. I was not surprised to learn she experienced a fifty year dark night of the soul. How can light shine if you already think you have all the truth--especially if that truth perpetuates all the misery you see around you.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-26561963241720898912012-01-24T10:39:49.739-07:002012-01-24T10:39:49.739-07:00Butterly I agree with a lot of what you've wri...Butterly I agree with a lot of what you've written here. I think when JPII and Benedict had to reflect on their experiences in WWII and after, the inbuilt guilt factor from the Catholicism they grew up in had to be pretty high. Benedict lost himself for a time in Vatican II, while JPII took to mysticism and self harming spiritual practices. I think both of them were and are very conflicted, but so are most of us who grew up in the last century and have lived through the technological explosion of the last fifty years. I have to keep reminding myself that our childhood, in which our brains get their initial training, in no way really prepared us for what we've experienced. My daughter tells me that's why I'm fixated on the Wizard of Oz and Star Trek. Very little else has actually been helpful in making sense of some of this---outside of basic math and reading. My early catechetical formation certainly has been mostly worthless if not an outright hindrance.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-14343152553117744462012-01-24T08:41:33.989-07:002012-01-24T08:41:33.989-07:00Butterfly, I don't think they expect to be hel...Butterfly, I don't think they expect to be held accountable for healing anyone. They believe that suffering in this life is good for the soul and all healing will come from the God in the afterlife. They speak out against the suffering of course; make token efforts at feeding the starving, and giving drink to the thirsty, healing to the physically ill. But they don't ever expect to do anything to ensure more people have secure access to the material goods they need to survive or even thrive. This is part of what Christ meant when He said that the poor would always be with us. They take this as license to ignore the very real plight of vast numbers of people. How else to explain that in places of desperate poverty, which could be alleviated with some form of birth control so that mothers can focus on the raising of 2 or even more children through to adulthood rather than give birth time after time to children who will die before reaching a first birthday: They still insist on birth control as an intrinsic evil? And how many more examples of this callous disregard for any sort of quality of life on this side of the divide can we find? It is as if the only creativity that men are allowed to engage in is that of begetting more children. Well, it takes creativity to bring about a decent quality of life for all those children in my view. The raising of those children should take equal precedence at the very least. <br /><br />In my more charitable moments, I give them some credit for keeping their focus not on this life but the next. And I myself have said/thought from time to time that I'd prefer to do my penance now rather than after I die. Still this focus on the good that can be brought by God's Hand from suffering... Maybe it is just my selfish nature, but I certainly prefer a God of true nurture and compassion to one of the 'Tough Love' variety.<br />VeronicaT'Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14497973041430354008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-18478493585597735312012-01-23T21:39:01.914-07:002012-01-23T21:39:01.914-07:00It is most unfortunate that Popes Benedict XVI and...It is most unfortunate that Popes Benedict XVI and John Paul II have not witnessed in any true sense the dark raw bloody history in which they both lived in during WWII. They have influenced broadly for a few generations now around the world the very ills they purport to decry. There is just blame and scapegoating from them both. There is no transcendence of spirituality that I can see in either of them.<br /><br />These leaders have not resolved world hunger or gone out of their way to make any significant change for the good in any of our lives. Had they spoken out against the true evils we all would have benefited. And for all intents and purposes they have been in bed with the politicians in the political sphere that have no conscience regarding bringing justice into the world they condemn. Their condemnation of those in Europe and in the US that have left the Church or are leaving the pews now is quite immoral in light of the fact they have not rejected the choice to war with mankind instead of loving mankind and becoming as Good Samaritans as Jesus taught. They are of the mind to pass the man or woman left for dead by the path they walked on. <br /><br /><br />We keep hearing how liberals have ruined the Church with Vatican II. We keep hearing the war cry coming from right wing extremists to excommunicate those who differ in wisdom, insight, maturity, spirituality, sexuality and we continue to suffer such attacks from them which is from their lack of compassion, a distortion of wisdom and creativity as evil instead of as loving grace. They seem to see people as clumps of flesh to order about who have no history of their own that could refute and condemn their acts as failed spiritual leaders with involvement & preference for evil tyrants, dictators and priests in their own ranks who have committed horrible crimes themselves against little children. <br /><br />Both Popes, JPII and BXVI have unfortunately been shell-shocked victims of wars in their youth. They seemed to have never recovered beyond their own wounds to enable them to heal anyone, let alone the entire Church or the secular world of which their blame and scapegoating seems to still reside as in their youth. Seems there are just too many other people who are around them that influence & enable them to remain blind in their own uncreative conscience. They have no compassion for those they prefer did not exist. <br /><br />ButterflyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-20547632725229715412012-01-23T20:58:47.676-07:002012-01-23T20:58:47.676-07:00DeCrosse does mention the importance of factoring ...DeCrosse does mention the importance of factoring actual scientific truth in one's practical reasoning, but he writes more about the reasons the hierarchy refuses to do so. But I think you have the right of it, Natural Law without factoring in what we actually know from nature is really Unnatural Law.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-27268738135074801832012-01-23T14:40:23.494-07:002012-01-23T14:40:23.494-07:00While I have only quickly skimmed the article, I f...While I have only quickly skimmed the article, I find interesting that no one mentions the real problem with the Vatican/Bishops style of moral ethics: the lack of input from actual scientific facts in the ethical system of Natural Law morality. The "Facts" in the Natural Law system are what Aristotle knew (or thought he knew) 2500 years ago. And most of them are wrong. And if your Facts are wrong, so are the conclusions that flow from those facts. There are other systems of Ethics that use actual science as its foundation, namely Personalism. Start with facts, take people and the Gospel seriously. This is the framework my ethical decisions flow from.Sue Bnoreply@blogger.com