tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post7204756865651352857..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Gay Marriage? A Insidious Threat To The Common Good, Or A Real Threat To The Celibate Priesthoodcolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-87153077224835085102010-05-15T15:21:16.894-06:002010-05-15T15:21:16.894-06:00Colleen -
1) the cartoon is hysterical!!! :))
2...Colleen - <br /><br />1) the cartoon is hysterical!!! :))<br /><br />2) The Vatican should consider examining the considerable contents of its own closet.....<br /><br />3) Typical of 'Opus-Speak" this clown cannot (actually is intentionally not...) distinguishing between a sacramental marriage - and a civil union. <br /><br />The former IS the province of the Church (or any particular faith); the latter is none of their business. <br /><br />The core of the problem is the misuse of the word 'marriage". This is a sacramental union of a man & woman - witnessed by the community in the presence of a priest, minister, rabbi, imam, mullah, buddhist priest, etc. The contracting parties marry each other; confecting the sacrament. The clerical officiant merely acts as a notary for the state - and asks God's blessing upon the union.<br /><br />...but 'the Church' neither makes the union nor creates it. <br /><br />By contrast, a civil union between any two persons is NOT a marriage, as it is not sacramental. This does not make it a '2nd class' thing. It does NOT mean they are 'living in sin'.Nor does it in ANY way imply that God does not approve of or refuse to bless such a union. He does....sometimes more the certain so called 'marriages'!<br /><br />No civil union/civil wedding is a (sacramental) marriage. BUT...not all 'marriages' are in truth....marriages. <br /><br />If one or both party enter into a marriage insincerely: there is NO 'marriage'. No matter how many men wearing pointy hats officiated! <br /><br />'Marriages of convenience' (regardless of the reason...) are an abomination before God. Because they are LIE! You cannot lie to God; He is not mocked! Whether it is for $$, social standing, an arranged marriage, or to hide one's homosexuality....it is LIE! And God does not bless lies. <br /><br />Would God bless a same sex union? Why not? If they are completely sincere & mature in entering into the union, an devoted to each other, then their union is (correctly) about love. Not hedonism. <br /><br />One should not fall into the trap of calling a gay civil union "2nd class' or somehow inferior to a conventional/sacramental marriage. Because this is simply NOT TRUE.<br /><br />Would you dare call the wedded union of a man & woman - officiated at by a justice of the peace...a Civil Union......'inferior'<br />Or say they are 'living in sin'? <br /><br />If that union was entered into sincerely, they are loyal & devoted to each other, there is most certainly NO sin!<br /><br />Anon Y.MouseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-63142616761314614722010-05-15T13:57:08.652-06:002010-05-15T13:57:08.652-06:00p2p, I don't think this discussion is adversar...p2p, I don't think this discussion is adversarial at all. I was in a discussion on another site with pro-lifers and was called terrible names because I support President Obama. So even though I am pro-life these people consider me guilty of evil because I voted for Obama.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-12641960516860899862010-05-15T13:20:25.021-06:002010-05-15T13:20:25.021-06:00@ Mareczku
I hope this discussion hasn't been...@ Mareczku<br /><br />I hope this discussion hasn't been too adversarial.<br /><br />There are too many abortions. Most can be prevented under the conditions I've mentioned earlier. <br /><br />p2p<br /><br />word verification: stsinfe <br />Hmmm St. Sin fe... ???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-15096460524203294112010-05-15T12:33:12.308-06:002010-05-15T12:33:12.308-06:00The discrepancy in gender ratios in both India and...The discrepancy in gender ratios in both India and China are fueling a type of 'mail order bride' industry. A side issue concerns the fact that not all the 'brides' are Chinese or Indian. Which I guess shows the unintended consequences with intentional social engineering.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-92169992570354509192010-05-15T11:53:14.943-06:002010-05-15T11:53:14.943-06:00Butterfly, the ratios for India and China are curr...Butterfly, the ratios for India and China are current. The 105-106 male to 100 female ratio in the US is a fairly stable ratio that hasn't changed much over the years. That is just from my memory. I wasn't aware that China was importing women from other countries for evil purposes. This is the first I ever heard of that.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-90754037885869299942010-05-15T11:42:28.722-06:002010-05-15T11:42:28.722-06:00Mareczku, the RCC supposedly is against them, but ...Mareczku, the RCC supposedly is against them, but we don't hear about it at all. We do hear about abortion and about their homophobia.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-43347202676739993702010-05-15T11:34:41.420-06:002010-05-15T11:34:41.420-06:00Thanks for the stats Mareczku. Are those stats fo...Thanks for the stats Mareczku. Are those stats for the late sixties and early 70's, the Vietnam era, or current stats?<br /><br />I am familiar with India and China's stats and the reasons behind it. China only allows for one child per couple and in a lot of cases they prefer the male. I've heard some awful stories coming from India and the killing of girls when they are only a few days old and their reasons are purely economic. <br /><br />The extreme in China with its forced abortions if caught having more than one child and another type of extreme that many Pro-Lifers here push of totally banning all abortions, in my mind are both political extremes which I do not agree with as they do not address the issue with any sense of reasonableness or compassion.<br /><br />China now seeks females from other countries, in the form of sexual slavery to fulfill their sexual appetites.<br /><br />word verif: redralibutterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-70855390351811006572010-05-15T11:30:21.585-06:002010-05-15T11:30:21.585-06:00Some of the hierarchy leave me shaking my head. I...Some of the hierarchy leave me shaking my head. I think of Cardinal Law and Archbishop Burke in Rome and I shake my head. There was a discussion about Archbishop Burke on another site and people went on about him as if he was the second coming. I made a critical comment which got moderated. It amazes me that those people go on so about how great Archbishop Burke is and to me that guy is such a pompous queen. (No I didn't say that on that site, I criticized Burke for his treatment of abuse victims.) Sorry for being somewhat rude here but just felt like a little venting. With guys like Burke, I can understand why many women feel alienated from the Church.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-54219777128232572342010-05-15T11:24:26.236-06:002010-05-15T11:24:26.236-06:00Butterfly, I thought that the Church was against n...Butterfly, I thought that the Church was against nuclear weapons. I think you are in agreement with Church teachings about this but may be in disagreement with right wing conservative Catholics who may be pro-nuclear weapons. I think some in the hierarchy care about the people but sadly some do not. I am in agreement with your last paragraph there.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-7658445440885944952010-05-15T11:09:58.745-06:002010-05-15T11:09:58.745-06:00Mareczku, "Our Catholic faith honors the sanc...Mareczku, "Our Catholic faith honors the sanctity of human life."<br /><br />To a point, then it drops the ball entirely when it comes to the promulgation of nuclear weapons (the bigger threat to human life than abortion), playing political footsie with the military industrial complex, the hatred of gays, women, people of other faiths, certain politicians they don't like, etc.<br /><br />The abortion issue keeps people busy in this issue while the bigger threat looms everyday these weapons are on the planet. <br /><br />Colleen, we did grow up in a time when the nuclear threat was very real and many decided to either not have any children or fewer. Now other issues have become dominant and pushed as the threat, but the issue still is the nuclear one that should be brought to the forefront and made illegal to have on the planet by any nation or people.<br /><br />I don't believe that the hierarchy cares about the life of people. They talk about the sanctity of life of fetuses while ignoring or condemning those who have already been born. This is the tragedy of the "pro-life" movement. <br /><br />Young people do need sex education when it comes to birth control, knowing what is available and how to use it. More than that is needed though that would encourage loving relationships.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-18808360230445616192010-05-15T11:06:12.287-06:002010-05-15T11:06:12.287-06:00Colkoch, I was not aware that you had said that ab...Colkoch, I was not aware that you had said that about Sacramental marriage. So you do not believe that infertile couples should have a Sacramental marriage? It sounds as if you are even stricter in this than official Church teaching.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-41561521959666248852010-05-15T10:45:44.903-06:002010-05-15T10:45:44.903-06:00No Marcezku I'm asking you to take a serious l...No Marcezku I'm asking you to take a serious look at what happens NATURALLY in the procreative process and try to understand that some of us look at those data and have truly come to believe that the legal definition of full human person can not meaningfully exist at conception.<br /><br />There are compelling reasons to refrain from making a moral definition the legal definition.<br /><br />I agree completely that real feminism needs to include child advocacy--but then so does real masculinism. I have written in the past that Sacramental marriage should be reserved only to those couples who agree to raise children and it should include a life long commitment to the children, and not be a commitment exclusive to the other adult.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-25334166118100985402010-05-15T10:31:37.328-06:002010-05-15T10:31:37.328-06:00Butterfly, in the US, there are 105-106 males born...Butterfly, in the US, there are 105-106 males born for every 100 females. Since males die at a higher rate than females at a certain age the ratio is equal. There are a lot more females over 70 than males. In countries such as India and China the ratio of male to female births may be as high as 120 to 130 males births for every 100 female births as abortion for sex selection is being used more.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-45766955629576438262010-05-15T10:28:04.207-06:002010-05-15T10:28:04.207-06:00Well, Colkoch, the guys need to be educated too. ...Well, Colkoch, the guys need to be educated too. Sadly, I don't think that the abortion industry is going anywhere because a lot of men make a lot of money in this industry. A lot of women are exploited by men. A lot of women are forced by male partners to have abortions. Real feminism is for the kids too and against the abortion industry that exploits women and children.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-55176228726719525682010-05-15T10:25:56.563-06:002010-05-15T10:25:56.563-06:00Great discussion here. May I add that there are ot...Great discussion here. May I add that there are other contributing factors to the decline in the birth rates. There are more females, I believe, being born than males in the US. Also, men are preferring not to marry at an early age. There are a lot of single females. In the 1970s a lot of the young men were carted off to Vietnam. Some came back sick and could not hold down a job let alone have a family. Other factors for lower birth rates in the US and Europe should include the pollutants in the environment and their effects in causing sterility in men and women.<br /><br />It seems that the RCC men in "authority" really have lost all sense of reality when it comes to the world and its people and the God who made us.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-39072325030216426762010-05-15T10:21:56.382-06:002010-05-15T10:21:56.382-06:00Yes, Colkoch, having a child is more than birthing...Yes, Colkoch, having a child is more than birthing a live baby. This is true. I don't believe that any woman should be forced to raise an unwanted child. However, if a woman is pregnant then she does have a responsiblity to the child. A human fetus is a human being not just a bunch of cells as some of the pro-abortion people would have it. Our Catholic faith honors the sanctity of human life. I would hope that our faith would never turn their back on the unborn and say that abortion is just a choice and that the lives of unborn children are without meaning or worth. You are saying that I may be judgemental but what kind of judgement is it to say that a person's life is not worth living and it is OK to take that life away from them?Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-15268173649440167862010-05-15T10:18:23.517-06:002010-05-15T10:18:23.517-06:00p2p I find it so sad that all the recommendations ...p2p I find it so sad that all the recommendations dealing with abortion reduction place no responsibility on males to re evaluate anything about their own sexual responsibilities. <br /><br />Will it ever be thus, or will someday men understand they need to give serious consideration to the responsibilty inherent in their own sexuality.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-34799221817520390652010-05-15T10:16:06.570-06:002010-05-15T10:16:06.570-06:00Anonymous, I agree with the 4 statments that you m...Anonymous, I agree with the 4 statments that you mentioned. Those along with stringent legal restritions against abortion would be a good thing. Less me stress that young people do need good sex education and people should use birth control if they do not wish to have children. But in my mind abortion is not birth control. It was terrible that Reagan singed that act. As you have noted, it ended a lot of lives. It was a tragedy.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-462258305892496002010-05-15T10:04:40.328-06:002010-05-15T10:04:40.328-06:00@Mareczku
You might want to look at that era a li...@Mareczku<br /><br />You might want to look at that era a little more carefully. <br /><br /><i>"On June 14, 1967, Ronald Reagan signed the Therapeutic Abortion Act, after only six months as California governor. From a total of 518 legal abortions in California in 1967, the number of abortions would soar to an annual average of 100,000 in the remaining years of Reagan’s two terms — more abortions than in any U.S. state prior to the advent of Roe v. Wade. Reagan’s signing of the abortion bill was an ironic beginning for a man often seen as the modern father of the pro-life movement..." </i><br /><br />Source: Reagan’s Darkest Hour <br />“Therapeutic” abortion in California.<br /><br />http://article.nationalreview.com/344489/reagans-darkest-hour/paul-kengor-and-patricia-clark-doerner<br /><br />Today, according to: Guttmacher.org<br /><br />http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/sfaa/california.html<br /><br /><i>"• In California, 887,900 of the 7,697,776 women of reproductive age became pregnant in 2005. 62% of these pregnancies resulted in live births and 23% in induced abortions."</i><br /><br />That's 204,217 abortions in California in 2005. <br /><br />I understand your point about the lower number of births in the 1970's but it cannot be due to abortion alone. <br /><br />On the issue of legality: The Incidence of Abortion Worldwide<br /><br />http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html <br /><br /><i>Conclusions: Both developed and developing countries can have low abortion rates. Most countries, however, have moderate to high abortion rates, reflecting lower prevalence and effectiveness of contraceptive use. <b>Stringent legal restrictions do not guarantee a low abortion rate</b>.</i><br /><br />To prevent abortion:<br />1. encourage girls to become educated. <br />2. provide sex education. <br />3. allow birth control<br />4. encourage girls and women to be full members of society (legal, social, political and economic participation)<br /><br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-89642726270338921972010-05-15T08:42:05.178-06:002010-05-15T08:42:05.178-06:00Your take may be just a tad bit too judgmental. H...Your take may be just a tad bit too judgmental. Having a child is about far more than birthing a live baby.<br /><br />If men and women would engage in sex strictly when they lovingly wanted a baby, we would have no problems, but that's not how the biology is set up. Most men and a lot of women engage in plenty of sexual acts which don't have loving and wanting a baby as their genesis. If this wasn't a fact prostitution would be a non starter and adultery wouldn't exist.<br /><br />Think about this fact, spontaneous miscarriage happens about 25% of the time in the procreative process. If you multiply that times the number of women in their child bearing years through out the globe, that's a staggering number of miscarriages. Somewhere in the half a billion range on a yearly basis. This happens irrespective of want or need.<br /><br />If full personhood exists at conception then the pro creative process itself has little built in respect for our notions of the sanctity of human life. Perhaps this is why this whole notion of a fully human person existing at conception is a recent absolute teaching. The tradition more easily supports quickening, and that actually makes more sense vis a vis what actually happens in nature.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-72000292185143672582010-05-15T08:01:57.590-06:002010-05-15T08:01:57.590-06:00Note to anonymous. The number of births in the US...Note to anonymous. The number of births in the US was above 4 million per year from 1954 through 1964. The advent of the birth control pill did result in the number of births going down. I don't know exactly how many states had legal abortions before 1973. Some of the drop in births in the years just before 1973 might have been the result in an increase in the number of abortions. The years 1973-1976, had the lowest number of births since the end of World War II. I realize that there are some pro-abortion Catholics but in my opinion abortion is pretty much the death penalty for the unwanted and the unloved.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-86750944819260288602010-05-15T06:14:05.747-06:002010-05-15T06:14:05.747-06:00One of the other trends which is frequently overlo...One of the other trends which is frequently overlooked is that in the sixties people started to have to relocate to follow the job market. That resulted in the loss of extended family relationships which meant raising children truly became a nuclear family event. Couple that with women having to go into the job market in order to sustain the 'American dream' and many of us think birth control came a long at the perfect time.<br /><br />People sometimes forget the women's movement was propelled by the concept of equal pay for equal work, not just reproductive rights.<br /><br />If one backs up and takes the really long view, Mother Earth did not need first world countries populating at excessive rates given the cost in material resources to maintain a first world family vis a vis a family in the developing world. In order to maintain any balance someone was going to have to give. <br /><br />Personally, I chose to have one child because I honestly thought we were going to blow ourselves to smithereens anyway, so why bring more children into what at times appeared to be certain nuclear death.<br /><br />The sixties were a complicated era and many many issues were driving the many calls for change. They were about far more than sex, drugs, and rock and roll.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-78761696124624935662010-05-15T05:57:01.179-06:002010-05-15T05:57:01.179-06:00@ Mareczku
Whatever one's view of Roe v Wade ...@ Mareczku<br /><br />Whatever one's view of Roe v Wade the statistics don't support your argument. <br /><br />http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html<br /><br />The birth rates (per 1,000 of population) have been declining in the USA since 1910. One could argue that many factors such as a decline in infant mortality and migration from farms to cities were factors in the first 50 years. Later would come birth control, feminism, abortion etc. Note that women were having fewer children per 1,000 population in the 1950's than their mothers and grandmothers had in 1910. (25 versus 30)<br /><br />The number of births depends on a variety of factors such as the number of women of childbearing age. If you want to look at the decline in life births in the USA you would be better to examine the data starting from 1960 with the introduction of the birth control pill. (Invented by a devout Catholic, John Rock. See: John Rock's Error<br /><br />http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_03_10_a_rock.htm<br /><br />I think the "abortion mill" argument is too simplistic. It is one factor among many. Note that the number of live births was declining by about 200,000 per year in the two years before Roe v Wade in 1973. The year you refer to, 1975, had the lowest number of births between 1950 and today. I'm a member of the baby boom and I recall young women were deferring marriage and childbirth at that time. <br /><br />What is undeniable is the decline in birth rate over the past 100 years, from 30.1 births per 1,000 population to less than half that at 14.0 births per 1,000 population today. <br /><br />I don't understand your "Mexico" argument. The USA, with a much larger population, still had about 4.1 million births in 2005, about the same as the beginning and end of the baby boom of 1955-1962. But that doesn't represent growth in the population the way it did in the post war years. <br /><br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-82561393419035424392010-05-14T23:52:18.151-06:002010-05-14T23:52:18.151-06:00I have changed my position on abortion after serio...I have changed my position on abortion after seriously considering the case of conception by rape.<br />Some politicians say (or used to) that they are against abortion "except in the case of rape or incest", but they support those who would close down abortion facilities entirely, which makes me think that theirs is the ultimate lip service to sexual abuse victims.<br />Pressing the scholastic grid against the reality of conception via rape, firmly holding up the Catholic superego as a lens unto children conceived by way of violence and human disregard, I must conclude that we are not so apart; there are really no biological 'stops' and 'starts' by which we can determine 'life' and 'non-life'.<br />The Old World was founded on rape, whether is be the creation of the natural world by Gods raping demi-goddesses or poor female mortals or the creation of human societies, such as in the case of the Rape of the Sabine Women.<br />We truly live in a New World in which we strive to define ourselves, men and women, as equals. To that effect, reproductive rights must be protected.<br />For example, the right-wing is conditioned to grow pallid at the phrase "population-control", but isn't that what every middle (and above) class family practices when they calculate the money and, more importantly, the time that they would be able to spend on a potential addition to their family? This is a reasonable and humane calculation based on the average cost-of-living, therefore, places with a lower cost-of-living have more children yet the Grand Inquisitors continue to believe that it's because the less industrialized parts of our world have "kept Gospel values." <br />But they have a point! If only they could make it!<br />Yes, we have more money, more things... yet why do we not have more leisure time, more social facilities??<br />To delve into this is to criticize the forces of Capital (such as marketing) - yes, as Karl Marx pioneered, but by no means had the last word on. This is beyond our Church establishment. In fact, the Vatican actively worked to stamp out any theology inspired by marxian critique - often with deadly consequences. Those killed should have been burned at the stake instead of gunned down, if only for consistency's sake.Captain Picardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07675995256310168056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-72181724861288877672010-05-14T19:10:46.438-06:002010-05-14T19:10:46.438-06:00This is a very good article. It is food for thoug...This is a very good article. It is food for thought. I am kind of iffy on the idea that homophobia will draw more men to the priesthood. Officially the Church doesn't want gay men in the priesthood. (Per Pope Benedict) But it seems that a lot just look that other way. With the abuse crisis, I think a married priesthood is in the wings. Plus we also have married priests who converted from the Episcopal Church, etc. In regard to the abortion issue. I think Roe vs. Wade was a huge mistake and caused a lot of damage. Within 2 years of Roe vs. Wade the number of births in the US dropped by half a million. As women born in the 1950's (the largest generation ever) were reaching child-bearing years, the number of births was going down. We are lucky that we sit next to Mexico because the US really hasn't had to pay the full price of Roe vs. Wade. Large numbers of immigrants have taken the place of those innocents whose lives were stolen from them in America's abortion mills.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.com