tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post7249595093031355094..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Why Is Archbishop Nienstedt Blaming Gays For The Failures Of Heterosexual Marriage?colkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-28518477134643882302010-09-26T20:44:17.986-06:002010-09-26T20:44:17.986-06:00Kevin, I truly think what Benedict meant about non...Kevin, I truly think what Benedict meant about non discrimination is that if gays stay in the closet where they belong, and everyone practices DADT, there is no discrimination and no reason to discriminate. <br /><br />Maybe this works for the Vatican curia or in his cultured world, but living in that world is precisely why he just does not get everyone else's gay world.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-87844197626757434932010-09-26T17:40:38.715-06:002010-09-26T17:40:38.715-06:00Funny, isn't it? Gay marriage? Not an issue ...Funny, isn't it? Gay marriage? Not an issue of discrimination. Adoption by gay couples? Nope, that's not an issue of discrimination. DADT? Not that either.<br /><br />Funny enough to make me weep.kevin57https://www.blogger.com/profile/01681985465980196347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-47525846862637238602010-09-26T17:15:04.857-06:002010-09-26T17:15:04.857-06:00p2p, for some reason there were five copies of the...p2p, for some reason there were five copies of the first part of your comment stashed in the spam file. I have no idea what went on there. You make good points about the vast differences in life expectancy and relative ages of marriage. These are facts which are not being computed and they should be.<br /><br />Mareczku, The USCCB supported keeping DADT in place. They apparently do not see it as an issue of undue discrimination. One has to remember that discrimination as it pertains to gays is a separate class of discrimination. In some areas it is perfectly fine to discriminate against gays. So sayeth Cardinal Ratzinger.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-82587918414634702132010-09-26T12:23:56.735-06:002010-09-26T12:23:56.735-06:00I am still horrified by this. The comment about b...I am still horrified by this. The comment about bishops being willing to engage in political money laundering is quite sobering. Who is footing the bill for all this? Why can't the money go to support struggling Catholic schools or poor parishes? It is hard to understand. What is behind Archbishop Neinstedt's seeming hatred of gay people? It seems that more bishops are getting out the long knives for gay people. And what about the Catholic Church and DADT? When are the bishops going to speak out against discrimination? Or are they afraid too? I wonder what the gay clergy in Minnesota think of these DVD's. Will we hear from them or are they too fearful of those long knives? The whole thing is pretty awful.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-14886248728238525462010-09-26T00:30:30.839-06:002010-09-26T00:30:30.839-06:00i just received from Amazon yesterday my copy of &...i just received from Amazon yesterday my copy of "Sex, Priests, and Secret Codes" authored by Thomas P Doyle, A.W.R. Sipe, and Patrick J. Wall. It is both very interesting and at times disgusting at the same time. These three priests have been the real leaders of reform and I recommend this book to all as I have read enough to see it is a very important document. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-60406309792856950822010-09-25T18:57:11.076-06:002010-09-25T18:57:11.076-06:00Ummm...
My two comments above were originally one...Ummm...<br /><br />My two comments above were originally one comment too long for the blog. Somehow they were published in reverse order... Sorry.<br /><br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-84180058115832371602010-09-25T18:53:20.275-06:002010-09-25T18:53:20.275-06:00...continued
Lifespan was understandably less fo......continued<br /><br /><br />Lifespan was understandably less for the African slaves of the day. Incidentally the Vatican did not object to slavery. According to Pius IX "“Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons.... It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given”. <br /><br />Instructio 1293: Collectanea, Vol. 1, pp. 715-720<br /><br />Marriage then was a very different proposition than today. The Catholic Church still hasn't addressed the issue of marriage after menopause. Catholics don't want to shack up in their 70's and yet according to the teachings of the Church they should not be able to marry because they cannot have children. Both my grandmothers lost their husbands while they were in their 40's. One granny lived to be 95. She had more than two ancient lifetimes without the comfort of companionship and sex. (It pains me to write this.) <br /><br />The institution of marriage needs to be reviewed in light of lower infant mortality and modern life-span, if for no other reasons. <br /><br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-6123952170372334102010-09-25T18:49:51.266-06:002010-09-25T18:49:51.266-06:00Sorry to be less religious than the rest of you. I...Sorry to be less religious than the rest of you. In the 2000 or so years since Jesus there have been a lot of changes, most of them for the good.<br /><br />The average life expectancy at birth for a contemporary of Jesus was about 25 years. One was expected to marry about the same time as one reached puberty. The teachings of the Church were in rhythm with life as it was lived. As soon as one felt sexual urges one could act upon them. Today children reach puberty as young as 11, but most at 13. In the USA the age of first marriage for men was 27.7 years and women 26 years in 2007. That's half an ancient lifetime gap between the natural onset of sexual awareness and social acceptability for marriage. Natural law doesn't apply when nature changes. <br /><br />For most of human history childbirth was regularly a time of death, both for the newborn and the mother. Not today in the developed world. <br /><br />Even 100 years ago infant mortality was 20%. One in five children didn't reach their first birthday. About the same percentage died before their fifth birthday. At the time of the Vatican 1 most people in Europe and America were still illiterate. The life expectancy of a white American was 43.6 in 1860. <br /><br />http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/haines.demography <br /><br />Lifespan was understandably less for the African slaves of the day. Incidentally the Vatican did not object to slavery. According to Pius IX "“Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons.... It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given”. <br /><br />Instructio 1293: Collectanea, Vol. 1, pp. 715-720<br /><br />Marriage then was a very different proposition than today. The Catholic Church still hasn't addressed the issue of marriage after menopause. Catholics don't want to shack up in their 70's and yet according to the teachings of the Church they should not be able to marry because they cannot have children. Both my grandmothers lost their husbands while they were in their 40's. One granny lived to be 95. She had more than two ancient lifetimes without the comfort of companionship and sex. (It pains me to write this.) <br /><br />The institution of marriage needs to be reviewed in light of lower infant mortality and modern life-span, if for no other reasons. <br /><br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-9527197531672812162010-09-25T15:54:47.325-06:002010-09-25T15:54:47.325-06:00Kallisti, my idea is if the Church wants any credi...Kallisti, my idea is if the Church wants any credibility in what they teach about marriage, then they need to be consistent. If procreation is the bottom line, then they need to make it the bottom line and children and their welfare the primary commitment. <br /><br />Some sort of public blessing ceremony for other relationships could then be in order. I personally would be far more inclined to support a system like this, than the hypocrisy of the one currently being sold as traditional marriage.<br /><br />As for me personally, I think truly spiritual relationships are mutually blessed and God witnessed. Many of those never see the inside of a Church for any kind of public recognition and they work or fail about the same as those that get Church approval. <br />And that includes gay ones.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-67090562225799818522010-09-25T14:45:04.160-06:002010-09-25T14:45:04.160-06:00Colkoch, isn't insisting that every married co...Colkoch, isn't insisting that every married couple have kids by some way or another really just playing into the hierarchy's (rather misshapen) hands? <br /><br />What effect for instance, would this view have on couples that cannot support children and/or simply do not want children in the first place? Not having kids isn't a moral evil you know. Is a marriage without kids really "just a license for sex" or is it about something deeper, like making a commitment to another person as the one you've chosen to spend the rest of your life with? Again, not riding you here, but this seems rather poorly thought out to me.<br /><br />KallistiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-88739417052467288332010-09-25T13:09:04.287-06:002010-09-25T13:09:04.287-06:00MJC, nice comment. As to your last sentence, it&#...MJC, nice comment. As to your last sentence, it's hard to trust God or each other when you can't trust yourself.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-75600771395473210472010-09-25T10:02:38.859-06:002010-09-25T10:02:38.859-06:00Well, Anonymous, we all get tired of this "yo...Well, Anonymous, we all get tired of this "you fell into my trap" style of one upsmanship that some people ascribe to, right or left. You have to admit that neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female in the Body of Christ is a pretty strong statement for what you derisively call diversity.<br /><br />I can't see how sinners, such as gay people and priestesses, are so fully anathematized when they ask to serve. Gay people want to be family instead of promiscuous, but society will surely fail if they do. Gay people want to raise unwanted children, but what a horrible fate -- can't have that. Women want to serve (yes, serve, not lead) as priests, but not by the rules of God.<br /><br />Jesus broke his Father's rules when it came to service of the people directly in front of Him. Why won't we emulate Him? Why won't we trust that sinners, drawn toward doing good works in honor of the Lord (a good definition for me and I hope for you as well), wouldn't be led by the Holy Spirit into closer and deeper faith? <br /><br />One more thing -- the next time I'm completely right about God's intent will be the first. Our Catholic and Christian history is full of our missteps and corrections, under the patient (way too patient for me) and tolerant eye of our God. Check the Gospels on how Jesus encountered those different from himself, those He wasn't even supposed to acknowledge like the lepers and the hedonistic women. He first engages them at their level, with "Go and sin no more" being after relationship is established. The command is tantalizingly ill defined. He leaves it to them, in the sight of His Father. Would that we would trust God and each other so well.mjcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-38173746896846055582010-09-24T22:15:33.837-06:002010-09-24T22:15:33.837-06:00"I'm pretty sure the church will never &q..."I'm pretty sure the church will never "teach" something about two mommies or two daddies. That would be straying, in my view, from teaching the Gospel."<br /><br />Hi Thera,<br /><br />well that sounds very bigoted of you, and Coleen disagrees!<br /><br />She believes that our church should be teaching that boys can date boys, etc. Families come many shapes and sizes; 2 mommies, or maybe 3 daddies, or 2 mommies living with 3 daddies. We as catholics should embrace this wonderful diversity! pretty soon, genders will be blurred, and misogney will be a thing of the past.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-38642001375714127912010-09-24T17:58:18.637-06:002010-09-24T17:58:18.637-06:00I agree with very little of elasico'a philosop...I agree with very little of elasico'a philosophy, but I think in discussing only how terrible that the Episcopacy of the Catholic Church has become is not spreading any good news. I think that we should not hide from these horrible statements of Bishops but wish this group would find a way to also move on to the good news of the Gospels and of humanity in general. I think there are many challenging and ethical ideas and possible actions that we could banter. I know we have done that and I have much enjoyed it, the bad news Bishops are dominating our discussions to the extent that it is tough to bring in the good news of evolving humanity. May we focus ourselves more on the positive actions we might take. For me this is the best part of prayer.rdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-17760920000708015922010-09-24T17:00:58.885-06:002010-09-24T17:00:58.885-06:00If gay marriage and adoption is bad, and a heteros...If gay marriage and adoption is bad, and a heterosexual marriage is better for children, then why does the Church allow priests to adopt and raise children? Fr Mike Pfleger in Chicago adopted and raised 3 children as did another priest in Chicago whose name eludes me at the moment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-46164369721678573012010-09-24T14:37:31.642-06:002010-09-24T14:37:31.642-06:00I'm pretty sure the church will never "te...I'm pretty sure the church will never "teach" something about two mommies or two daddies. That would be straying, in my view, from teaching the Gospel. And they've already strayed far, far from the gospel in teaching bigotry.<br /><br />Seems to me the RCC hierarchy could do well to return to the Gospel. Not just tiny parts of it, but the parts that apply to them. And to everyone!TheraPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684120043427738135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-5456192233542373172010-09-24T13:10:45.380-06:002010-09-24T13:10:45.380-06:00As Deep Throat once reminded us: follow the money...As Deep Throat once reminded us: follow the money.<br />But where did it come from? KofC? The Repug party? Octopus Dei?<br />Its tentacles are in everything.Translynxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-10705553055717826082010-09-24T12:50:31.517-06:002010-09-24T12:50:31.517-06:00Lots of kids already have to deal with two daddy&#...Lots of kids already have to deal with two daddy's or two mommy's because of heterosexual divorce.<br /><br />It's been my experience that teen agers will do what they feel inclined to do until it bites them in the butt. Too many insecure girls find dating self absorbed ego driven boys is a mistake. Teen pregnancy is a much bigger problem than gay dating will ever be. Grow up.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-64931479701934543772010-09-24T12:16:10.142-06:002010-09-24T12:16:10.142-06:00Hi Coleen,
Ok so you support the Catholic church ...Hi Coleen,<br /><br />Ok so you support the Catholic church marrying 2 men or 2 women. How about the church teaching that families can have 2 daddies or 2 mommies, or teaching that it's ok for boys to date boys? girls date girls, etc ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-18950379225118456342010-09-24T11:20:21.265-06:002010-09-24T11:20:21.265-06:00Videos. Who, but children, are most likely to wat...Videos. Who, but children, are most likely to watch them? Reminds me of those horrible videos against Islam in the presidential contest of 2008.<br /><br />So, who are they really out to influence? And will they also be sent via newspapers, just as the anti-islam ones were? We got ours then through the NY Times. And no amount of protesting would change their ad policy!<br /><br />Groups are taking advantage of the ad revenue of papers being down. It won't be long before these ads come via regular papers...TheraPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684120043427738135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-5197963883473193882010-09-24T06:50:13.741-06:002010-09-24T06:50:13.741-06:00Colleen, your phrase money-laundering seems right ...Colleen, your phrase money-laundering seems right on target to me. The more I think about this initiative, which has the fingerprints of the Knights of Columbus all over it, the more I realize it's a get-out-the-vote scheme on behalf of the Republican party.<br /><br />These videos are going out to Catholic households from the Catholic church in MN. An unknown donor(s) is paying for them. The Knights of Columbus produced the videos.<br /><br />And--most telling of all--they will hit Catholic households right before the coming elections. This is pure partisan politicking, of the grossest and most obtrusive sort. Willing to use the lives of a target minority to score political points.<br /><br />And willing to use tax-exempt status and freedom from regulations requiring opacity in financial affairs, since a church is doing this. It stinks.<br /><br />It is an attempt to manipulate those Catholics who still imagine that the mythic story of Adam and Eve is somehow a message about the "binary model" of gender. <br />And who ignore the central text of the New Testament about this, Paul's statement in Galatians that, in Christ, we are a new creation, in which there is neither male nor female.William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-73337600815865863382010-09-24T06:37:12.531-06:002010-09-24T06:37:12.531-06:00It depends. I can easily see blessing ceremonies ...It depends. I can easily see blessing ceremonies for infertile straight couples and gay couples. My own personal view is sacramental marriage should be as much about a lifelong commitment to the children of a marriage as it is between the adult partners. In this sense, I see marriage as a commitment to a family, not just a partnership. If non fertile or gay couples want to adopt, great. At that point I would have no difficulty with a sacramental marriage ceremony.<br /><br />Marriage should be about much more than a sort of license for sex. I don't agree that any parent should be able to 'annul' themselves from their children, which is more or less what can happen now. If marriage is about pro creation, then by God make the commitment to the children, not the partnership.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-88437255169318851642010-09-24T05:14:02.357-06:002010-09-24T05:14:02.357-06:00Hi Coleen,
do you believe the church should chang...Hi Coleen,<br /><br />do you believe the church should change it's position and start marrying 2 men or 2 women?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-55255335708518838452010-09-24T02:14:14.600-06:002010-09-24T02:14:14.600-06:00Very little "good news" here that I can ...Very little "good news" here that I can see. No joy. There is plenty of real good that is being done by the hierarchy (and others, including trads) in the name of Christ. But the narrow filter of your dogma doesn't perceive that light. <br /><br />Anger, frustration, whining and irritation aren't going to sell many new cars unless that is the model you like--a very narrow subset of believers. For me, I will now again fade to black. Good luck in MT.Elasticonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-64358769564421963012010-09-23T20:17:46.112-06:002010-09-23T20:17:46.112-06:00I know Elastico I am getting bored with these topi...I know Elastico I am getting bored with these topics myself, but then I'm primarily responding to what's presented by the teaching authority, I'm not initiating it.<br /><br />The observation of the Navajo elder was in reference to the tribal devastation wrought by the Spanish. He saw it as part of the lesson inherent in the cultural genocide wreaked by Europeans on Indigenous tribal society. They were being prepared for the next step in human consciousness and that is all about personal choice, personal integrity, and personal responsibility. We do not die, nor are our lives judged as members of a tribe or religion, but on our personal choices and integrity. I'm not talking about self indulgence. I'm talking about flat growing up and being a spiritual adult.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.com