tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post7972753549120612170..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: The Irish Government Has Had Enough Of Papal Authoritycolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-78188413422884070712011-07-18T20:38:47.404-06:002011-07-18T20:38:47.404-06:00Kevin, I wonder that myself. Sometimes I think it...Kevin, I wonder that myself. Sometimes I think it may have to do with the fact the American Catholic Church was composed of far more than just ethnic Irish Catholics and that many of the non Irish see the pedophilia scandal as an 'Irish Catholic' problem and not an Italian, Polish, Spanish, Mexican, German etc. problem. I don't quite know what to make of that other than in my own Polish experience there were way more St Patrick's day celebrations than there were Cinco De Mayo or St. Stanislaus celebrations.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-25767992948680442842011-07-18T12:16:41.815-06:002011-07-18T12:16:41.815-06:00This story is huge. I am the son of two immigrant...This story is huge. I am the son of two immigrant Irish parents. While my upbringing bore no resemblance to the TV-version of a "strict" Irish-Catholic home, the Church was held as "apart" from the ordinary norms of society. That the Irish gov't and people would be this outraged speaks volumes about how far this train has left from the station. <br /><br />I always return to the American scene, though. Why has there not been similar rage and action?kevin57https://www.blogger.com/profile/01681985465980196347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-55292738300825775482011-07-17T17:48:57.169-06:002011-07-17T17:48:57.169-06:00"these priests won't avoid the shame anyw..."these priests won't avoid the shame anyway" -- actually they will, because of Msgr O'Callaghan's refusal to thrown them to the wolves. Don't forget that the names in the report are pseudonyms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-1108301766826683462011-07-17T12:25:33.620-06:002011-07-17T12:25:33.620-06:00I probably should have used the term 'accounti...I probably should have used the term 'accounting' rather than shame. If some of these priests were innocent, and certainly all of them but one were when it comes to actual pedophilia, then that too will be in the 'accounting'.<br /><br />I actually empathize very strongly with Msgr O'Callaghan because I tend to cut my own clients too much slack, but that kind of slack gets real tight real quick when there are real people effected by their less than stellar moments. And I think that's the real bottom line issue for most Catholics, that the victims were not treated equally with the perpetrators and now the rebound effect is in play and it's the other way around.<br /><br />FYI, I never did agree with the 'zero' tolerance approach because 'one size does not fit all'. At the time I really wished they would have done some consultation with the American Psychiatric and Psychological Associations to get some ideas on how professional organizations involved in similar relationships handle these kinds of things. Instead the bishops went all PR and no common sense. It's no wonder individual bishops choose to ignore their own protocols, but that's not the solution either. I suspect it's going to take a whole lot more time before things sort themselves out.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-81084522708911697812011-07-17T10:11:06.023-06:002011-07-17T10:11:06.023-06:00"These priests won't avoid the shame anyw..."These priests won't avoid the shame anyway" -- yes, but suppose they are entirely innocent. And if you think every human being should be shamed for his or her less than stellar moments, then who'll 'scape whipping? Would ANY human being want his or her unstellar moments put on display?<br />It is the most vicious criminals who escape detection, while bishops known to have hugged young men inappropriately are treated as lepers.Joehttp://josephsoleary.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-33161415311023356052011-07-17T10:06:38.874-06:002011-07-17T10:06:38.874-06:00I agree, Colleen, about the priestly disconnect. T...I agree, Colleen, about the priestly disconnect. The myth has been built up too powerfully. In the 1960s we began to hear the meme, "Priests are human", which was code for "physical and sexual beings" - but the holy horror at the idea of priests as sexual prevailed. Newman may have felt that when he preached on "Men, not Angels, the Priests of the Gospel". Personally, I chose to live in Japan partly for this reason (though as an academic I was never particularly bothered by the sort of pressures parish life entails). I have been blissfully unsaddled by absurd "expectations" while relating quite well to the faithful in pastoral situations. I note that in response to the Cloyne report Abp Clifford and Bp Magee have once again offered unreserved apologies; I wish they would show more backbone, and point out that the complaints in the report mostly reached back to as early as the 1960s and depended very much on perceptions and memories that were not necessarily reliable. Msgr O'Callaghan was being asked to kill old men on the basis of very flimsy allegations; he is right about the mandatory reporting regime.Joehttp://josephsoleary.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-46568405253820345122011-07-17T09:58:43.348-06:002011-07-17T09:58:43.348-06:00Niall O'Down, who aspires to the Irish Preside...Niall O'Down, who aspires to the Irish Presidency, has harsh, and unjust, words for Bp Magee:<br /><br />http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/what-vatican-secrets--does-disgraced-bishop-john-magee-take-with-him--89340797.html<br /><br />http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/bishop-magee-did-vatican-bidding-by-covering-up-cloyne-pedophile-priests---video-125624723.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-49697691919448930722011-07-17T09:30:34.167-06:002011-07-17T09:30:34.167-06:00Joe, the truth is these priests won't avoid th...Joe, the truth is these priests won't avoid the shame anyway. We do have to deal with our less stellar moments eventually, living or dead.<br /><br />I understand where you are coming from, but from my own experience I also understand something else. Some men are ordained priests without a clue as to how much power lay Catholics assign that vocation. I've met too many individual priests whose own self worth is pretty low and they do not relate to the relational power of their vocation the same way some laity do. Which is why some of them really do see themselves as vicitms of their own vocation when they get caught doing non priestly things. There is all too often a huge disconnect. I hope this is making some sense.<br /><br />In the end the fault lies in the theology of the priesthood which empowers a vocational status and expectations which too often are far beyond the ability of a lot of men who hold the vocational title.<br />The Church needs to get realistic about the theology of the priesthood. And I'm afraid this disconnect is only getting worse.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-43990421285541137312011-07-17T08:43:56.162-06:002011-07-17T08:43:56.162-06:00The Irish Times has a useful summary of the allega...The Irish Times has a useful summary of the allegations against individual priests. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0714/1224300713984.html<br /><br />In many cases mandatory reporting would have meant exposing dying priests to public shame on the basis of very dubious allegations about events that happened in the 1960s. Msgr O'Callaghan is a Christian. not a STASI snitch, and not a witch-hunter.Joehttp://josephsoleary.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-13150243888023088522011-07-17T08:10:58.206-06:002011-07-17T08:10:58.206-06:00Rat-biter, unfortunately the Irish solution of mak...Rat-biter, unfortunately the Irish solution of making priests mandatory reporters does nothing about the priests who used the confessional as a grooming tool or for outright solicitation. For that reason alone forcing priests to report isn't terribly useful.<br /><br />I personally don't think this proposal will go very far once the heat of the moment cools down.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-17044606364643287612011-07-17T08:03:31.215-06:002011-07-17T08:03:31.215-06:00Joe, that was pretty my take on it from reading th...Joe, that was pretty my take on it from reading the article in the Herald, but then when I read an interview with the victim, this wasn't a one shot deal. It happened multiple times. One time I can get all over the giving comfort more innocent aspect, but multiple times it becomes harassment, and that's a firing offense in my work. But then in all fairness, we get a lot of in service training on what constitutes safe and appropriate boundaries. Sometimes it can be very counter intuitive.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-36759709844933855462011-07-16T20:16:37.472-06:002011-07-16T20:16:37.472-06:00Simple solution to the Confession dilemma: stop ce...Simple solution to the Confession dilemma: stop celebrating the rite of individual absolution and offer the rite of general absolution instead; it has the same sacramental force.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-36614658763593105502011-07-16T20:15:04.270-06:002011-07-16T20:15:04.270-06:00Colleen, I did not say the bishop was practicing s...Colleen, I did not say the bishop was practicing seduction, because I deny that the bishop was making a pass at the young man. Here is my take: an old gay man asks a young straight man, whom he is rather enamored of, to share a comforting hug ("does it feel good" could mean -- I know a young straight man like you may not feel uncomfortable to hold an old man). There is no evidence whatever that the bishop was looking for anything more from the young man. <br /><br />I agree that in today's university and church it has become a firing offense to touch any parishioner or student or younger colleague affectionately. The bishop should have buried his feelings.Joehttp://josephsoleary.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-84844565330007380212011-07-16T19:55:37.863-06:002011-07-16T19:55:37.863-06:00"Government plans to jail priests for up to f..."Government plans to jail priests for up to five years if they fail to report information on child sex abuse, even if it was obtained in the confession box, put it in direct conflict with the traditional teachings of the Church."<br /><br />I find this worrying. IMO the solution would be, to tell the penitent - assuming we are talking about the confession of a paedophile - that his (occasionally, her) penance was to confess to the police what had been confessed in the sacrament. <br /><br />That way, the seal of confession would be absolutely secure, and a civil crime would not go undetected; and there would be no collision of state with Church; & the confessional would not be available as a means of avoiding making reparation. The just claims of those wronged by abusers, of the Church's doctrine and sacramental practice, of the penitent in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, of the state, of the public, and of the law, can all be met - no collision between the Church and of these otgher parties is necessary<br /><br />"If you close that loophole, and the priest knows that he has to confess or go to hell after he rapes a child, he has a big dilemma."<br /><br />To be exact, he would need to make an act of perfect contrition, just like anyone else. *Sacramental* Confession is not absolutely necessary after committing a mortal sin - an act of perfect contrition is, because contrition is the soul of the sacrament. Without contrition, there is no sacrament. And anyone can do that, at any time. <br /><br />Not ordaining psychopaths would help, of course.Rat-biternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-2275185603448334562011-07-16T10:18:56.940-06:002011-07-16T10:18:56.940-06:00Joe, I think you called Magee's behavior '...Joe, I think you called Magee's behavior 'seduction' over at Commonweal. In my line of work such behavior is a firing offense, as it should be.<br /><br />The Cloyne report was not really intended to uncover new abuse, but to investigate whether the diocese followed the stated protocols of the Irish bishops. They didn't, and Castrillon Hoyos' letter gave all the permission Magee needed not to follow protocol.<br /><br />Do I think some of the reaction is overblown? Yes. And yet the main issue boils down to one of trust. When a person realizes something or someone they believed in can not be trusted, it triggers a classic grief reaction and part of that process is anger. Catholic Ireland is angry, really angry, and they have a right to be.<br /><br />Now is the time for the Church to listen, not make excuses or attempt to minimize.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-30151386995783646222011-07-16T01:16:54.025-06:002011-07-16T01:16:54.025-06:00PatO -- as far as I know there is only one allegat...PatO -- as far as I know there is only one allegation of rape mentioned in the Cloyne report; there are not allegations of attempted or actual buggary; the most memorable "wrongdoing" is that a bishops hugged an 18yo; the only criticism of the Vatican concerns a lettter of Castrillon Hoyos what is not new information. The populist reaction and the outrageous proposals of Ministers Shatter and Fitzgerald, which will install a universal Scarlet Letter regime (except that the Puritans punished sinners, the new regime punishes anyone alleged, suspected, or perceived to have acted inappropriately), are over-the-top kneejerk reactions, that have nothing to do with the welfare of kids. The State has lavished millions on a lawyers' junket that has produced derisory results, and is very tight with its money when childrens' needs are really at issue. Some Irish priests are answering back, ineffectually and much too late: http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/07/brendan-hoban-on-the-debate-over-the-seal-of-confession/Joehttp://josephsoleary.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-79885573849332306992011-07-16T00:02:51.142-06:002011-07-16T00:02:51.142-06:00hrm...all of this makes me wonder if those in lead...hrm...all of this makes me wonder if those in leadership are listening to the words they say or if they no longer have meaning for them.<br /><br />"Confiteor Deo omnipotenti...quia pecavi nimis cogitatione verbo et opere: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa."Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04200045196217644013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-5635548141870234092011-07-15T23:23:41.777-06:002011-07-15T23:23:41.777-06:00Brilliant.
There is no question that the Cathol...Brilliant. <br /><br />There is no question that the Catholic church has been raping children for decades, covering it up, lying about it, and ignoring the victims. Its worse in Ireland than in a lot of places.<br /><br />They can't be trusted to protect society from their own pedophiles, and for a long time, the laws of the land allowed the church to get away with that. The church shamelessly, recklessly, sinfully abused that power - not as individuals, but as a coordinated, organized whole.<br /><br />That makes them an organized crime empire as much as a religious institution.<br /><br />They should start losing benefits, like "the loophole of confession", since they have long lost respect and trust.<br /><br />Pedophile priests proved that confession gave them the capability to rape children as long as they ran to confession afterwards. Some in the US in Philadelphia had sex with children in confessional. That's convenient. If you close that loophole, and the priest knows that he has to confess or go to hell after he rapes a child, he has a big dilemma. <br /><br />Pedophiles - want forgiveness from God? Go to prison on earth. You don't get the benefit of God's forgiveness for free. Priests - want to hide your pedophile priest friend? You go to jail, too.<br /><br />Enact the law. Let's hope the US follows suit. The Catholic church concealed child rape for at least 60 years. Let's let the government shut down the pedophile protection practices. Next up - taxing the church.<br /><br />When & if the pope visits, put him in jail.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12461865437824551724noreply@blogger.com