tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post8006379780555365692..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Reflections On The American Catholic Conferencecolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-8067461531778703872011-06-18T09:53:50.512-06:002011-06-18T09:53:50.512-06:00I'm personally glad the NCR has changed their ...I'm personally glad the NCR has changed their commenting rules. The NCR blog was getting to be very toxic, especially on the articles written by certain contributors--- virtually all women, I might add.<br /><br />The saddest part for me was I truly enjoyed battling wits with a couple of the long time conservatives who were definitely not part of Fr. Z's storm trollers. But even those voices got drowned out and conversation became impossible.<br /><br />I have no idea how many comments of my own get self censored because my snark-o-meter gets tripped. Too often I find myself writing a furious response to some off the wall attack comment and then my better self takes control of my right hand and hits the delete button. :)colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-51822438127655856432011-06-18T08:54:56.062-06:002011-06-18T08:54:56.062-06:00Rat, I'd like to confirm your feelings. Altho...Rat, I'd like to confirm your feelings. Although I skew very strongly to the liberal side, i have seen some conservatives go after our differences in faith and with charity. However, the anonymity of the internet does seem to bring out the mob mentality as well. I note that it is hard for me not to jump on any little mistake by those on the other side of the issue, winning my point rather than listening and "growing the faith".<br /><br />However, the worst vitriol seems to come at a central issue for me. It seems the hierarchy has created a modern Gnostic approach, a superclass of the faithful who have the answers we all seek. They have bastardized the goodness (charism?) of obedience, twisting it to preclude any co creation or inspiration as God touches us. A set of laws becomes primary, and adherence to those laws starts a cascade of denial. I understand denial of childish wants and discipline, but fear of evil is preached as a prerequisite for docile purity and goodness. <br /><br />Here's where I get crazy. I could be 100% wrong in all of the above suppositions. Heaven knows I am regularly wrong, and probably the object of much celestial chuckling if not dismay. I can't understand what part of the Catholic tradition disqualifies me based on those beliefs. You think women can be priests? Must excommunicate now. You think the papacy might be temporary rather than permanent, and may be fraught with human assumptions? Obviously Satan has you. It is this cleansing that is toxic, and it is this part of the discussion that must be addressed -- the inclination to kick out those who don't believe properly. It's not Catholic. <br /><br />I'll add that I've not heard anyone ask for the excommunication of Ratigan or Flynn in Kansas City. Merely retuning them to the pews is sufficient for most, and jail is a separate and secular issue (I hope they both go, for the good of society as incarceration should always be). That's the inclusiveness and forgiveness that I'm listening to. That's where I see self sacrifice. That's where Jesus is reflected.mjcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-29568620269709782762011-06-17T17:37:32.325-06:002011-06-17T17:37:32.325-06:00Anonymous for post 9 = rat-biterAnonymous for post 9 = rat-biterRat-biternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-11660544580463247722011-06-17T17:35:56.306-06:002011-06-17T17:35:56.306-06:00"I've found it fascinating to read the co..."I've found it fascinating to read the conservative response to the American Catholic Conference. If there is any sense of Jesus Christ in these responses I didn't find it."<br /><br />He's apt to be forgotten by all sides - the two NCRs are pretty evenly matched. Where I do notice some difference is in the essayists: John Allen could hardly be anything but a Catholic Christian. Some conservatives, OTOH, are of a different spirit. People on all sides can be repulsive, but that's human nature, unfortunately. Which is not an excuse, but an observation.<br /><br />What I do notice (speaking an foreigner, with no experience of US life) is that US Catholicism seems to be terribly divided, not tidily, as in an army, but more like a broken window. And people who are on the same side in one or more respects, are likely to be opposed over other matters; often very bitterly. It's not a pleasant sight to behold, at all. Worst of all, no one seems want to talk to anyone who is not on the same side. But this, surely, is exactly what needs to be done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-56647484582564939412011-06-17T12:37:17.185-06:002011-06-17T12:37:17.185-06:00Thank you for this. Brian Coyne's opinion on e...Thank you for this. Brian Coyne's opinion on effectiveness is true but that doesn't detract at all from other good points made here.<br />For several years now it is obvious that there are several people who want movement on these issues.<br />This link below came up today -I don't know if is of use but at least it is an attempt to join up the dots.<br /><br />http://contemplativecatholicuk.blogspot.com/2011/06/church-need-for-new-beginning.html<br />BlessingsBlue Eyed Ennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06181985609681328032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-60776429073403485412011-06-15T13:57:03.131-06:002011-06-15T13:57:03.131-06:00I am with you, if there is any concept of Jesus in...I am with you, if there is any concept of Jesus in the traddie responses to the ACC (particularly on NCR's story,) it's impossible to discern. It encourages a passive mindset (we Catholics know all about passivity) and almost makes an idol of Church governance. We should never let human institutions block the importance of Jesus's message. Sue B, you are also right about the ultra-conservative orders. I think they are reporting relatively high rates now, but the real test would be how many there are in five, ten, fifteen years. One of the conference attendees advises that the conference was intended to plant seeds. It is up to us how to tend them so that they grow.khughes1963https://www.blogger.com/profile/16118365554189078448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-23522118447818977862011-06-15T09:54:35.202-06:002011-06-15T09:54:35.202-06:00Thanks for posting Brian's relection on the co...Thanks for posting Brian's relection on the conference and for your expert commentary. You are absolutely correct about participation by the young as being vital. Perhaps if someone builds it, they will come. I'm sure more people are already finding their way to all kinds of religious "communities," probably most we've never even heard, of in houses and gatherings, just like the beginning of ChristiantiyBetty Clermontnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-89297482990313982132011-06-15T09:30:58.863-06:002011-06-15T09:30:58.863-06:00I agree that the comments are filled with vitriol....I agree that the comments are filled with vitriol. I do think the ACC was worth it. The Traddies have had the ear of Rome and the USCCB for quite a while. The Conference won't change anything, certainly in the near term, but it reminds the Good Ol' Boys and the Traddies that we're still here, and we still have a voice.kevin57https://www.blogger.com/profile/01681985465980196347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-41242731725087403032011-06-15T09:22:18.464-06:002011-06-15T09:22:18.464-06:00V2 was a sincere attempt to move back to the Way o...V2 was a sincere attempt to move back to the Way of Jesus. JP 2 the great and Benny are narcissistic responses to hold on to personal power. Rome has become once again a cult of personality. Young people usually, after a time, find their ways out of cults. My impression is that it is very few young people in comparison to the excitement of the young toward an inclusive V2 that threw its windows open to the Holy Spirit. With the shutters now closed, it does not take long for the inner flatus to become a disincentive.rdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-49380011705051996942011-06-15T06:18:25.685-06:002011-06-15T06:18:25.685-06:00Sue the retention numbers so far aren't any be...Sue the retention numbers so far aren't any better than the LCWR and for the reasons you state. The time between 18 and 25 is a pretty dynamic time in neuro development--especially for the higher reasoning centers. What's appealing at 18, in a counter cultural sense, isn't quite so appealing after one hits their mid twenties.<br /><br />@Macha, it would have to be meaningful reform, and that would include how we understand what Jesus was all about. He was not about Roman Catholicism as we know it today, where individuals are dependent on external sources of 'grace' in order to achieve heaven. He was about internalizing relational connections with our Source and sharing that in an active form of collective consciousness. He didn't found a religion, He founded a Way and it worked a whole lot better when people understood that.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-91066613354181290762011-06-15T01:06:22.763-06:002011-06-15T01:06:22.763-06:00Something that picture brought up for me: One of t...Something that picture brought up for me: One of the reasons so many religious left the orders in the 60s & 70s was because the strict and unbending formation process they went through did not prepare them for the explosive changes in society (religious and secular) that happened across the entire world. <br /><br />Are a number of the ultra-conservative orders drawing young members? Yes but the question is how many will still be there in five years or ten? Just deep faith and passion in a young person isn't enough. <br /><br />Flexibility and maturity are more necessary today than ever. It would be nice if we had such maturity at the top and not only in local priests and nuns.Sue Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-6815165509005418662011-06-14T23:40:45.082-06:002011-06-14T23:40:45.082-06:00That's an excellent point. But isn't it p...That's an excellent point. But isn't it possible that meaningful reform could draw the youth back into the church as well?Carla Schmidt Hollowayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12947846629735463824noreply@blogger.com