tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post9184182277083577544..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Mary Hunt On Pope Francis' Interview: A New Moment In A Long Church History, Or An Exercise In Charm?colkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-65516361575725353632013-09-29T19:07:19.084-06:002013-09-29T19:07:19.084-06:00Yep!!Yep!!rdp46noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-48780454266261339512013-09-29T10:25:36.538-06:002013-09-29T10:25:36.538-06:00Dennis, Jerry makes some great points and I found ...Dennis, Jerry makes some great points and I found myself agreeing with quite a bit of it. U nfotunately he too can,t let go of the ordained priesthood. We know the theological conceptualization of the ontologically elevated priest was a huge and foundational issue in the abuse crisis and cover up. The house of cards rests on that whole priestly mythology--and that includes every one of Jerry's issues.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-75172123801609665502013-09-29T05:33:51.843-06:002013-09-29T05:33:51.843-06:00Colleen, I am off topic here, but have you read Je...Colleen, I am off topic here, but have you read Jerry Slevin's Piece about Francis. If not here is food for thought:<br /><br />http://christiancatholicism.com/will-pope-francis-be-ready-for-his-reform-meetings-with-cardinals/rdp46noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-175532145625506912013-09-29T01:28:35.241-06:002013-09-29T01:28:35.241-06:00Since I do not have the editing feature I add here...Since I do not have the editing feature I add here an edit to the last paragraph.<br /><br /><br />The Pope needs to make a decision to include women as equals on this planet with all its problems that affects each and everyone of us, male & female, or be deemed in history as an enabler of male narcissistic machismo & misogynist patriarchy and a hypocrite like most of the other Popes.Freedom&EqualityRocksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-69610329135375970462013-09-29T01:15:59.658-06:002013-09-29T01:15:59.658-06:00If Pope Francis truly & whole heartedly tries ...If Pope Francis truly & whole heartedly tries to deepen his understanding of women he will see how damaging patriarchy & machismo, men ruling the world in so many World Wars without regard to women, has created a planet that is in a near death situation with the types of armaments out there now. The focus of the Church has not been on saving anything except male machismo & patriarchy. Patriarchy & machismo are like a flesh eating disease. I wish he could see how damaging it has been to women & children, eating up their lives & destroying them. To only see how it has been damaging to the men is just more male narcissism. <br /><br /><br />The Pope needs to make a decision to either continue on the path of enabling the male narcissism, patriarchy, misogyny, all heretical in substance, or be deemed a hypocrite like most of the other Popes.Freedom&EqualityRocksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-68294524643160587372013-09-28T13:45:50.085-06:002013-09-28T13:45:50.085-06:00Francis certainly engages in 'both/and' st...Francis certainly engages in 'both/and' statements. It's sometimes hard to discern just where he personally resides on a given issue. When he gets too close to stating something he personally believes that might be controversial, he throws out the 'catechism' 'son of the Church' type qualifiers.<br /><br /><br />What I find perhaps more validating about his progressive tendencies is that he is making certain Catholics nervous. There has lately been the appearance of comments assuredly telling us all that if he gets too far out into heretical waters true believing bishops and cardinals will somehow depose him. Like we have a mechanism to depose a pope. Well, I guess poison has been used more than once.<br /><br /><br />If all he turns out to have accomplished is to put kinder gentler lipstick on the same ole pig, the fallout will be global.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-54096904091657085622013-09-28T13:38:59.818-06:002013-09-28T13:38:59.818-06:00It would be nice if in the process of deepening hi...It would be nice if in the process of deepening his understanding of women he also realized just how damaging patriarchy and machismo have been for the planet, and for that matter, men themselves. That itself would be a start on developing a theology of humanity which stressed our shared values.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-74957894216921661392013-09-28T13:34:09.531-06:002013-09-28T13:34:09.531-06:00That's really interesting Molly. I never thou...That's really interesting Molly. I never thought about this from the aspect of indefectibility, but then I've never taken that to mean globally on all things. Once one starts speaking in absolutes, the qualifiers rain down.<br /><br /><br />I like the idea of giving laity of all kinds special dispensations for priestly faculties because it avoids the whole ordination question and has precedent in the early church--at least precedence as an approach to lay involvement in sacramental rituals. It just seems to me the ordained priesthood has become a major major stumbling block and the one card that will tumble down the whole house of cards if something isn't done and done quickly.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-12834916298660598112013-09-28T10:41:10.966-06:002013-09-28T10:41:10.966-06:00Colleen, your question, “Can he admit the Church h...Colleen, your question, “Can he admit the Church has made mistakes?” sent me looking for material on Indefectibility. In my last round of studying theology, a Carmelite in Dublin said that an obstacle to the ordination of women is the indefectibility of the Church--he seemed to think that if women were ordained, it would be an admission that the Church has been wrong about this since the beginning and, given the character of indefectibility, that is not possible. This argument tied my mind in knots at the time even though it struck me as bogus---the men have all these terms that map out the territory as they see it and these terms come into play, openly or not. A more formal definition of indefectibility is that the Holy Spirit will not allow the WHOLE Body of Christ at any time in history to fall UTTERLY into apostasy or heresy. And Avery Dulles wrote that "the Holy Spirit will preserve the Church against using its FULL authority to require its members to assent to what is false." Hmm. To me the key is presence of the absolutes WHOLE, UTTERLY and FULL. These point to making distinctions rather than making the wholesale claim that “We’re right, we’ve always been right and we’ll always be right.” So I would say that the indefectibility of the Church is a character which must be discerned in specific situations rather than an absolute that can be declared. Given that, it is possible to acknowledge that the Church has made mistakes. I don’t see how the Church can grow without engaging in this kind of reflection.Molly Roachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-2880980552035223322013-09-28T10:19:15.861-06:002013-09-28T10:19:15.861-06:00Unfortunately, Annika, I tend to believe what you ...Unfortunately, Annika, I tend to believe what you say is more correct than not. I do hold out hope that Pope Francis may teach the church to learn from experience not the idea of infallibility as we are only finite creatures that can not know the Great Mind of God.rdp46noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-55659841633739554902013-09-28T01:09:28.376-06:002013-09-28T01:09:28.376-06:00The whole interview is so....jesuitical. Frankly,...The whole interview is so....jesuitical. Frankly, I don't think this is ever going to change. It's part of who he is. Jesuits raised equivocation to a fine art and I think that is what we are seeing and will continue to see. Those who hope for change will exhaust themselves trying to hold Francis to what they think he said while those he entices back into the church will find out the hard way that this was, again, not about the Gospel, but about a kinder, more gentle way of keeping power and the status quo. Forgive my cynicism. The only hope I hold out is that the Gospel, even when uttered disingenuously still has power and consequences.Annika Halvarinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-41767730132496578522013-09-27T16:38:50.092-06:002013-09-27T16:38:50.092-06:00I guess if Pope Francis wants or needs a new theol...I guess if Pope Francis wants or needs a new theology of women that he should spend some time with Mary Hunt, some of the women religious, and some women who serve or have served in the military, with women scientist & teachers. <br /><br />His grandmother was in a different time, Vatican I time, when machismo was the standard. <br /><br />"The very fact that women are set apart as special, different, seems to imply that everything else he says about church, morality etc. is for and about men."<br /><br /><br /><br />I think that rather than seeing the differences of men and women in our bodies, the Pope needs to see what men and women have in common. The first thing we have in common is that we have a soul and a heart, hearing & seeing, a mind with an intellect that was made by God and if Faith counts for anything in the Church, Faith is not male or female. Hope is not male or female. Love is not male or female. Faith, Hope & Love are gifts meant for everybody. We are made in God's image. Such a view does not take a separate theology for just women.<br /><br /><br />I say good riddance to the narcissistic macho views that have created a narcissistic macho dilemma in the world that can only create a world full of Rambos, wars, hunger, terrible strife for us all. The politics so generated from such a view is still a very dangerous threat to us all.<br /><br /><br />God speed to Pope Francis on his quest to being able to relate to women as equals. I sense that he wants to. I look forward to some real action in that direction though.Freedom&EqualityRocksnoreply@blogger.com