tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post1019138030145576577..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Vatican Men Enter The Uppity Liberal American Nun Battlecolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-70920406706150845112013-04-23T00:11:14.491-06:002013-04-23T00:11:14.491-06:00You are right, Anonymous. Anything short of that ...You are right, Anonymous. Anything short of that would unacceptable. I believe the progressive nuns will eventually be excommunicated. They are obviously asking for it. Sadly, the church has waited far too long. These sisters are clearly apostates and totally unprepared to recant. The sooner we are rid of these women, the better. The purge is long overdue.Anton Seidlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-77614530293142335772012-04-22T10:15:52.926-06:002012-04-22T10:15:52.926-06:00The only thing that will make the men in change of...The only thing that will make the men in change of the RCC is for nuns to wear the original habits, work almost exclusively in schools as teachers and hospitals and nursing homes as nurses. To only open their mouths to pray Vatican approved prayers and to condemn abortion and homosexuality in that order.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-47120379779042009252009-10-27T12:03:23.577-06:002009-10-27T12:03:23.577-06:00Thanks for commenting Highlander. I wish this was...Thanks for commenting Highlander. I wish this was a case of getting caught in the cookie jar, but it's far more than that.<br /><br />In the first place adult women are adults, not children. Secondly the real problem the Vatican is trying to address will not be solved by treating these women as if they were children.<br /><br />The major issue seems to be refusal to invest in all Vatican teachings. That should not come as a surprise to the Vatican. Women religious are not vested in the institutional church in the same way as clerical priests. Sisters have no say in the development, dissemination, or authorization of any given doctrine, dogma, or discipline. Subsequently they are free of a sort of compulsory sense of defending it. They are freer to think outside the box.<br /><br />The Vatican is going to have a very difficult time putting these sisters back in the box, unless they can come up with some way--outside of coercion--to have them reinvest in the hierarchy. I don't see how that happens unless there is a real effort to make them valued members of Vatican decision making bodies.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-9458334971182316862009-10-26T09:42:31.927-06:002009-10-26T09:42:31.927-06:00Without commenting, in any negative way, on the Si...Without commenting, in any negative way, on the Sisters who have remained faithful to their religion and their vows, it seems that many of the reactions to the Apolostolic Visitation are akin to the little boy who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar and immediately tries to divert his Mom so that she won't notice.<br /><br />Some Sisters have taken a route which opposes the Church, its theology, and dogma. They have been caught out. Mom has noticed. Now they will be held accountable.<br /><br />All of the diversionary wailing about misogony, and pedophilia, and patriarchy -- cannot distract Rome from the Case of the Crushed Cookies. All of the clarion public calls of feminism and education and self-expression and democracy may sit well with a mundane audience, but make no impression on those who have ignored and repudiated their sacred promises. <br /><br />The real shame here is that many women have been duped and, despite their noble intentions and activities, placed themselves into a state of particulary grave sin. And, if you know your catechism, you know what that means.<br /><br />The Church, however, is always open to those who earnestly repent.Highlandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-30846576931044112612009-09-07T11:07:36.887-06:002009-09-07T11:07:36.887-06:00Anonymous, a fellow anonymous commenter posted on ...Anonymous, a fellow anonymous commenter posted on aspects of Canon Law as it pertained to this issue. In point of fact a diocesan congregation does not have total control of their property and it can be sold out from under them.<br /><br />We'll see how this all shakes out.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-51879641393959439162009-09-07T07:13:27.996-06:002009-09-07T07:13:27.996-06:00Colkoch, what "golden egg" are you talki...Colkoch, what "golden egg" are you talking about? Working Sista, precisely which canons or other church laws are you quoting? You are both far off the mark. It is well known - I mean, I don't know how much clearer it can be that American convents are desperately short of money, no golden egg or egg of any other quality exists in any convent today. And the "Church" (whether you are imagining it to be the diocese, bishop, Vatican, local pastor, or whatever) does NOT u;ltimately own whatever property any religious community owns. All of these situations are very carefully outlined in public (and available for the asking) canon law. If an institute completely dies out, the Church is the appropriate umbrella group, but in every instance, church law applies. These norms are publicly available. I know that emotions can run high when the topic turns to American nuns or to the divinely authored authority of the church which Americans unschooled in Catholic theology simply cannot grasp, but come on, separate your rfaw emotions from fact when discussing these matters. Undoubtedly you will want to go to confession about this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-11526305463734704832009-07-08T10:24:51.799-06:002009-07-08T10:24:51.799-06:00Working sista, this is my thinking as well. I als...Working sista, this is my thinking as well. I also think the fact that only American congregations are receiving this treatment speaks directly to the money, not the issues of doctrinal orthodoxy or vocational declines.<br /><br />American sisters are sitting on the golden egg. While I hope and pray we are both wrong, my head and gut say we aren't.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-68382448668362957272009-07-07T13:28:05.167-06:002009-07-07T13:28:05.167-06:00It is not a far cry to see that the Vatican is out...It is not a far cry to see that the Vatican is out to get the monetary assets of women religious orders as Sisters dwindle in numbers and debts for the pedophile prients increase. <br /><br />It is little known that 1) the Vatican and the "Church" does not support the Sisters financially. The congregations earn their own money and have worked for very little in dioceses for years, but have made more money working in, let's say, hospitals and colleges. 2) the Bishops do not "fund" the Sisters' retirement. So all the aged sisters who did so much in the past are now being supported by the very few younger sisters who are trying to keep things afloat. And plan for investigations - like we have time for this nonsense!!<br /><br />Now the weird part about Canon Law is that the "Church" OWNS all the property and assets that religious women have accumulated over the years - even though the Church did not help the Sisters buy any of it. The gifts given to and the salaries earned by Sisters over the years that were used to buy property for, let's say, a school or clinic, can be taken over by the Vatican if it so chooses. But, it would be hard for the Vatican to take over any of those assets without good cause. SO, if the Church can make the case that the Sisters are doing something wrong, and the Sisters will not roll over and recant/reform, then it can take over the property - thus kicking the Sisters out of the Church and leaving them all penniless at the same time.<br /><br />It is smooth move, orchestrated by one of the most corrupt and frightening arms of the Church. Yes, the Inquisitors still exist in the Church and their job is to keep the hierarchy (and, by extension, the orthodoxy) intact and safe. And anyone or any group can find themselves tied to the burning stake. The inquisitors do not act often - but when they do, they are very effective.Working Sistanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-18507197740663453182009-07-02T01:20:23.613-06:002009-07-02T01:20:23.613-06:00Anonymous wrote "American Sisters lost their ...Anonymous wrote "American Sisters lost their identity and reason for being when they removed their habits and abandoned the Church-related apostolates for which they were founded, their pent-up and misdirected energies (which should have been devoted to their institute's particular apostolates) has caused tghem to be "prowling around like a lion looking for souls to devour." Sounds a lot like opinion not fact to me. It certainly isn't true of the many dedicated Sisters I know.Verumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-24467377594196959232009-04-18T10:23:00.000-06:002009-04-18T10:23:00.000-06:00I'm glad you made the distinction between diocesan...I'm glad you made the distinction between diocesan and pontifical orders. The situation I linked to in this post was a diocesan convent.<br /><br />It does seem the Church is splitting along Orthodox and more reformed notions. I don't know that that's such a bad thing. It's not like this hasn't happened in the past, even within Roman Catholicism itself.<br /><br />If I had a wish, it would be that American Catholicism would remember that the real center of our circle of Faith is the Eucharist. This is where connections are made and differences, if not overcome, at least lessened.<br /><br />It is that fundamental connection which makes leaving Catholicism so difficult and on the other hand, precipitates the perceived need to protect it's sacredness. The truth is no one needs to be forced out, and the Eucharist doesn't need protection.<br /><br />The Real Presence is a whole lot bigger than our perceptions.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-15353498021535579612009-04-18T07:09:00.000-06:002009-04-18T07:09:00.000-06:00Well, I did state it was a cynical view.
The probl...Well, I did state it was a cynical view.<br />The problem is quite simple- given the facts that the hierarchy has not been exactly responsive to quite a few scandals, ranging from the pedophilia to the financial to the political, it<br />seems reasonable to distrust their good will on any action.<br />It's obvious to me that there's a tragic split occuring in the Church. One group wishes, in essence, absolute obedience to the hiearchy, obedience without question. Another group questions everything the hiearchy proposes, distrusting even positive statements. Most in the Church are in-between, not quite distrusting and not quite trusting. Perhaps that's the best option but it's rather sad to see it as such.<br /><br />Anonymous 1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-84250589356986074742009-04-18T04:20:00.000-06:002009-04-18T04:20:00.000-06:00Oh, come on now, folks. First of all, "colcoch," ...Oh, come on now, folks. First of all, "colcoch," I was there right after V2 and it was an earlier version of the LCWR under the leadership of misdirected sociologist nuns that deformed the renewal. Don't you remember the "Sisters' Survey" and all the damage it did? And, husband of "old social worker," shame on you and your wife for entertaining (and then publishing) such negative thoughts about Rome without supporting evidence. As a matter of fact, the Vatican has safeguarded precisely the opposite since Vatican II. It is a matter of public record that when the IHM community in Los Angeles went through its metemorphosis and became a non-canonical, ecumenical, lay or married entity known as the IHM Community, Rome insisted on the procedure occurring in such a way that the assets and security of all those who were leaving official Religious life and creating the newly-constructed IHM Community were safeguarded. The normal course of events would have been that those who chose to leave were free to do so, with monies staying with the original canonical religious community. (All Religious sign a document at profession stating that they will never seek recompense for services they provide during their time in religious life.) However, Rome insisted that even those 52 Sisters who remained in canonical relgious life as nuns had to withdraw from the original IHM Congregation and refound a new institute (even though it basically retained the same name) so that 100% of the ladies all became "former members" of the original community and would therefore share its assets. Rome never too a glance toward those monies but rather took great effort to see to it that the departing women left with their financial security; the canonical group fared much more poorly, by the way. <br /><br />Although circumstances varied because the conditions were so different, somewhat earlier, basically the same financial procedure occurred when the Glenmary Sisters split and most members evolved into a lay association outside of the Church (i.e. FOCIS). Even though those remaining in the canonical community did not have to resign from the original congregation in this instance, and simply continued in the same community as Glenmary Sisters. Check out FOCIS's own published accounts of these things and find this evidence. <br /><br />Finally, you will be interested to observe a current phenomenon in the Church. As many of today's convent congregations are regrouping and merging to found new entities (I suppose so that they can die out with more company), some of these are diocesan and not pontifical congregations. When a diocesan congregation dies out, its money and property revert to the diocese. Yet, in every case that is known about, when diocesan communities of Sisters were involved in these new amalgamations, every bishop involved gave his necessary permission for the community of his diocese to merge into the larger pontifical congregations, thereby ending any right the diocese would ever have to left over monies. In justice, check these things out before vilifying the Church. The ink is not yet even dry on the documents finalizing arrangements like this arrangements with several communities of Ursulines, Sisters of St. Joseph, and Dominicans. <br /><br />When I read such harsh statements about the Catholic Church as I find on this blogsite, I ask myself, "Have I mistakenly found my way onto a blogsite of the Ku Klux Klan, or the Masons or some other well-defined enemy of the Church? What sadness it causes to realize that such venomous comments are produced by people who claim to be enlightened Catholics. Please examine your consciences in this regard, make a good Confession, and be just with your future remarks, especially when you make them public.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-53655314088970902742009-04-17T13:51:00.000-06:002009-04-17T13:51:00.000-06:00My wife, an "old social worker", and therefore a b...My wife, an "old social worker", and therefore a bit cynical, thinks the purpose of the investigation is to remove the sisters from pension obligations and take control of assetts to pay off the lawsuits over pedophile priests.<br /><br />Cynical? Yes...but, undernetah all the doctrinal posturing, this really might be the motivation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-60812965166873706812009-04-16T16:40:00.000-06:002009-04-16T16:40:00.000-06:00wild hair, I've been wondering about Fr. Roy and w...wild hair, I've been wondering about Fr. Roy and why there hasn't been a formal excommunication. He maybe was saved by the SSPX fiasco and the Legionaire's mess---at least temporarily. In the meantime there's always the nuns.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-68613761417848066972009-04-16T16:37:00.000-06:002009-04-16T16:37:00.000-06:00Annonymous, you might want to do some research int...Annonymous, you might want to do some research into how the Vatican related to women's religious orders immediately following Vatican II.<br /><br />The Vatican called for the religious orders to rethink their apostalates and update themselves. Once the process was started the Vatican lost interest. If there is a perceived problem it's as much the Vatican's fault as anyone's.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-46906628934332113112009-04-16T14:59:00.000-06:002009-04-16T14:59:00.000-06:00Come on friends, get humble. Ever since the movem...Come on friends, get humble. Ever since the movement of change-oriented American Sisters lost their identity and reason for being when they removed their habits and abandoned the Church-related apostolates for which they were founded, their pent-up and misdirected energies (which should have been devoted to their institute's particular apostolates) has caused tghem to be "prowling around like a lion looking for souls to devour." Rome is just doing all of us a favor finally by straightening things out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-85323166846250035582009-04-16T07:46:00.000-06:002009-04-16T07:46:00.000-06:00I think Benedict stepped in a pile of it with his ...I think Benedict stepped in a pile of it with his Prada loafers when he lifted the excommunication of Bishop Williamson, the holocaust denying, Lefeberite bishop. Now the Vatican is using the investigation of American Women’s Religious Orders to try to help wipe the stuff off. <br /><br />Recall that back about November the Vatican was on the fast track to excommunicate Father Roy Bourgeios, M.M., the Maryknoll priest who faced death squads in Bolivia and is the founder of the School of Americas Watch. Father Roy refused to recant his support for the ordination of women and reminded the Vatican he is and has been a faithful Roman Catholic priest for thirty-six years. <br /><br />Fr. Roy’s mistake in the eyes of the Vatican, was to appear at the ordination of a woman priest in Pittsburgh last August. Notice that number #1 on Lavada’s list of grievances against the LCWR and women’s religious orders is the matter of the ordination of women.<br /><br />Well, it is now April and Fr. Bourgeios has not been excommunicated. He received a lot of support from these same women’s religious orders that are now being investigated. Benedict and the Vatican would look rather foolish lifting the excommunication of a holocaust denying, Lefeberite bishop and then excommunicating a faithful missionary priest and advocate for peace and justice.<br /><br />At the time it made me want to say: “Excommunicate me, too” “Excommunicate me, too!” This all makes Benedict and Vatican’s weapon of excommunication look foolish as well as toothless. And Benedict has dirty Pradas. <br /><br />I think the LCWR and women’s religious orders are smart enough and wise enough not to be used by the Vatican to clean up the pope’s mess.wild hairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08464835061893041481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-88380847911593989972009-04-15T14:10:00.000-06:002009-04-15T14:10:00.000-06:00Carl, you are so right that it is "greed, lust for...Carl, you are so right that it is "greed, lust for power, hatred of women, vanity, etc. I will add that it is pride, ignorance, lack of faith, hope and charity that "are the hallmarks of the Magisterial Authorities and the Vatican today." <br /><br />The reinforcement of these qualities are creating demonic monsters in the laity with no sense of compassion and no thoughtfulness or fortitude in their actions against their neighbors. <br /><br />They are fast becoming the enemies of Love itself.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-47902417966757874912009-04-15T12:35:00.000-06:002009-04-15T12:35:00.000-06:00Why is all of this so hard to understand?
Greed...Why is all of this so hard to understand? <br /><br />Greed, lust for power, hatred of women, vanity, etc. These are the hallmarks of the Magisterial Authorities and the Vatican today. These are the qualities that continue to be expressed, the qualities that continue to be reinforced, as the RCC leadership continues on its kamakazie course to be the fullest expression possible of a modern day pharisee. <br /><br />Why indeed are we surprised. Just as one can always tell where a slug has been by the trail it leaves, it is the same with these men as well.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.com