tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post1886018400658859273..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Another Day, Another Country, Another Story Of The Heart Break Of Clerical Pedopheliacolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-63087304723976121942011-06-25T17:57:31.728-06:002011-06-25T17:57:31.728-06:00Colleen, I am not certain that I agree with you th...Colleen, I am not certain that I agree with you that grace does not have a lot to do with love. When I see grace, I see a swan swooping through the ski, a skillful ballerina, a wonderful communicator, a good parent. I see grace as something acted out by a person, the more energetic and loving that person or animal is, the more graceful. <br /><br />The question about do we get that kind of grace from a sacrament? I don't know! I do know that if we don't see sacraments like Baptism and marriage as something we act out every day in love then, we are not receiving a sacrament at all. <br /><br />I think Benedict wants to believe that grace is something controlled by the church or by individual clergy men. He could not be further than wrong. Just a few thoughts and as always, I will be interested in yours. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-48253210583876322522011-06-25T14:28:50.958-06:002011-06-25T14:28:50.958-06:00Dennis, I don't disagree with you at all. I h...Dennis, I don't disagree with you at all. I honor Benedict because he is upholding the opposite end of the Church and choice I see as instrumental to who I am at this stage in my life. I'll get into this more on a post I am currently working on, but here's where I'm going with it. Catholicism as I originally learned it, and as Benedict is attempting to take it back to, was about sacramental grace. That idea of grace had nothing much to do with love. Love is the Way, grace is supposed to be the way of Catholicism. Jesus was about love. Substituting theological notions of grace is great for the Catholic clericalism, but infantilizing for Christians.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-86578453458941477872011-06-25T13:13:55.674-06:002011-06-25T13:13:55.674-06:00Coleen,
I am not certain that Benedict at this p...Coleen, <br /><br />I am not certain that Benedict at this point deserves much honor as a Pope. He certainly is culpable for many of the RCC abuses. It would be hard for me to say that he has very much integrity. If you look at his early writings and his recent actions, they are completely not congruent. Early in his papacy he was so feisty that he said, he would debate other theologians and they could not prove him wrong because, he was RIGHT. He does not seem to see that theologians can be right and wrong at the same time. That almost all theology is right and wrong. Debate may cause some elucidation of thought but it proves not much amongst theologians. Slow and rigorous persuasion is much better, but since Benedict feels he is right, he feels he has the right to say who is a "Catholic" theologian and who is not. <br /><br />I think Benedict is far from The Way that began the Church. I have very little respect for his way. As a person, I do not condemn him, but think he should submit to the International court of justice for the Vatican is a signed the treaty about protecting children. They certainly have an extremely poor record in doing that. I feel the Benedict may well be a felon and should be judged by a proper LAY civil court. The real question is he as bad a Pope as Pius !X and many others of a medieval Italian family. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-2881336221494243652011-06-24T20:18:54.467-06:002011-06-24T20:18:54.467-06:00That's because you are anon. I'm all for t...That's because you are anon. I'm all for the type of community that calls forth it's own celebrants. Maybe because I've seen that happen in Native American practice, and it works. Until we get past the notion that only ordained priests can make the connection through the Eucharist, Catholicism is out of touch with it's own history and it's own communion of Saints and angels. As Dennis says, Baptism is the only ordination we need to be one with the greater Catholic reality and fully capable of bringing forth Jesus in both our personal and sacramental lives.<br /><br />It seems to me that more and more people are beginning to entertain that notion the more Benedict and company stress otherwise. I've often said it takes multiple points of view to make a legitimate choice. In that sense I honor Benedict for upholding his end of the bargain even though I totally disagree with the outcome of his position and know it can't sustain itself.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-91295118652071914372011-06-24T19:45:10.633-06:002011-06-24T19:45:10.633-06:00My small lay community has a priest (a jesuit) occ...My small lay community has a priest (a jesuit) occasionally, but more often, we have a lay presider. We have had liturgy in this way for a number of years. As the years have gone by, and the Church has become increasingly clerical, we have started consecrating the bread and wine ourselves, claiming our priesthood gifts.<br />For a short time, we invited a woman priest to be our leader, but we decided we didn't want a permanent leader or pastor, even a woman.<br />It has been a very gradual process for us, and we are always wary of the "Temple Police." We sometimes feel like the early Christians, holding onto something wonderful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-40505064183275584112011-06-24T15:58:37.906-06:002011-06-24T15:58:37.906-06:00Most of the home masses that I know of celebrated ...Most of the home masses that I know of celebrated by Catholics using their Priesthood of Baptism are the English Versions of the !980's and 90's, I am not certain what they do in Europe or in South America. I suspect that their are some variations just as there must have been variations in the original Church know as "The Way".<br /><br />I think that the RCC will attempt to nullify anything done by the non ordained by using Cannon law. This law of course was not a part of The Way of Jesus and they know it. <br /><br />The China situation is about one authoritarian trying to control another. I have no opinion about it as either side is equally bad. <br /><br />There are several churches like the ECC in the US. Some of them are more in line with the Old Catholic Church, some not. I welcome these Churches if you look at what they believe you will see a lot of the outline of Vatican 2 with some progression beyond. <br /><br />I think it time that we The People of God make sure that we are indeed following The Way of Christ and not the way of some fearful men that use their fears to attempt to control their own life style. I think it important that most of the People we choose as celebrants of our liturgy have a profession outside of the clergy. For those independent Catholic Churches, at least there Bishops are chosen locally. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-80396545957907494462011-06-24T09:28:48.264-06:002011-06-24T09:28:48.264-06:00rdp46: The home liturgies sans ordained clergy tha...rdp46: The home liturgies sans ordained clergy that you mention... What form of liturgy is used? Are they more-or-less copying the current RCC-approved liturgy? Developing their own? Something in between? I'm just wondering how that works.<br /><br />I'm also seeing some news reports about China wanting to ordain bishops in the state-approved Catholic Church without Vatican approval of the selection process. I don't think I'd be comfortable with a state government imposing their selection of bishops anymore than I am with the Vatican imposing them. I find it interesting though that the Vatican loyalists in that country are reverting to the more secretive Masses in private homes. At least 1 article claims that China has backed away from ordaining non-Vatican approved bishops because they couldn't get enough local Roman Catholics to attend. I wonder how this tension between China and the Vatican will impact what happens in the US and Europe.<br />VeronicaT'Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14497973041430354008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-64772012928943291502011-06-24T04:17:29.747-06:002011-06-24T04:17:29.747-06:00The ECC is one of those Catholic Communions here i...The ECC is one of those Catholic Communions here in the states that offers a home for those of us disillusioned with the RCC, inclusive, welcoming and affirming.Jo Lauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14347521098048070518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-4832726834955147052011-06-23T23:16:19.953-06:002011-06-23T23:16:19.953-06:00I think you are correct about being careful Coleen...I think you are correct about being careful Coleen, but my impression is that we certainly do not need ordained clergy to celebrate these rituals. It was not part of The Way as the early church was known before being called Catholic. The priesthood of Baptism is enough. I attended, years ago home masses with priests, and they were usually at the homes of wealthy contributors to a RCC cause. This of course is not what I think people should do at all. I know there are many particularly in Europe that are already not afraid of celebrating their own liturgy without the aid of an ordained priest. The leaders are usually respected community members with outside professions. There are many theologians that have stated that this indeed can and should be done. Clericalism is the problem. This effectively does away with that.<br /><br />Not that all clerics are bad, many are not, but they are under the thumb of a very unreasonable Episcopacy men. <br /><br />I also am a big advocate of the Independent Catholic Church movement that may be in its infancy now but should explode with the problems produced by this extremely poor leadership. Many Independent Catholic Churches are shepherded by former RCC priests. Many of them are married. There are also many Old Catholic Priests that are shepherding some very emotionally hurt former Roman Catholics. In Brazil and Argentina there are many more of these independent Churches than here in the USA. They are showing The Way. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-35723350365918608872011-06-23T21:11:49.200-06:002011-06-23T21:11:49.200-06:00Dennis, I have a very close friend whose sister li...Dennis, I have a very close friend whose sister lived up in the White Fish area of Montana and got to know John Corapi well enough that he came to their house for dinner and held home Masses. They are devastated and her sister told me they were under the impression the Church forced laicisation on Corapi. Of course that's not true. I tole my friend to google Blacksheepdog and read the truth.<br /><br />Home Masses are also a hook. We have to be very careful about who we permit to enact our spiritual rituals. There is no panacea other than discernment and right now I think every lay person in the Church should be begging for the the gift of discernment--and that includes priests of integrity.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-27252974602210202162011-06-23T20:21:25.733-06:002011-06-23T20:21:25.733-06:00Br,
"The catholic church must take responsib...Br,<br /><br />"The catholic church must take responsibility and realize that their actions of covering up and moving pedophile priests to other parishes to carry on abusing in a different place, just made things worse. " <br /><br />Yes, the RCC must take CRIMINAL responsibility for the coverups as the priests that committed these crimes are criminals.<br /><br />Anon, <br /> "As for small Masses in the home - those are a thing of the past."<br /><br />Yes they were done this way in the past and there are now more and more people doing that way in their homes currently. You see the most important priesthood and the one that allows the consecration of the Eucharist is Baptism. Formal Ordinations and Consecration to the Episcopacy including the Pope were not seen until many generations after the death of Christ. People who wish to identify themselves with The Way of Christ may revert to this system. Also for generations after Christ the name of this movement was The Way and certainly not Roman Catholic. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-91097190150935020172011-06-23T17:39:37.277-06:002011-06-23T17:39:37.277-06:00I don't understand why the rosminian peodophil...I don't understand why the rosminian peodophile priests have not been arrested and put in prison, surely there is enough evidence in this shocking documentary for this to happen. I am devastated that my holy catholic church has actually condoned these activities by not exposing and getting rid of these so called priests. The catholic church must take responsibility and realise that their actions of covering up and moving peodophile priests to other parishes to carry on abusing in a different place, just made things worse. We need to keep our children safe. The catholic church needs to be open and honest in order that we can trust our priests, which at the moment is very difficult to do.brhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10160655026974718465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-1836380803552981502011-06-23T15:17:15.633-06:002011-06-23T15:17:15.633-06:00Another tragic story. Yes, it is heartbreaking.Another tragic story. Yes, it is heartbreaking.bobfett11https://www.blogger.com/profile/09668410092478588528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-64221682300519262022011-06-23T09:09:03.288-06:002011-06-23T09:09:03.288-06:00As a diocesan teacher in Kansas city, I took the &...As a diocesan teacher in Kansas city, I took the "Protecting God's Children" training. Every month teachers took updates. A parent could not even be a room mother without having passed the training. So, I see the Bishop Finn fiasco as a criminal coverup - plain and simple. Now another case in England. As for small Masses in the home - those are a thing of the past. Here in KC, the bishop has elevated himself so far above the rest of us, I hope he will soon float away. Aghast in MissouriAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-44396273055369096552011-06-23T08:02:31.619-06:002011-06-23T08:02:31.619-06:00I agree with you rdp46. For some time now, I have...I agree with you rdp46. For some time now, I have been thinking about home Masses celebrated by the members of these small groups.<br />Clericalism, in my opinion, is destroying the RCC as we have known it. I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide us all in The Way of Christ.Jo Lauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14347521098048070518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-63544260968282110942011-06-23T07:15:22.369-06:002011-06-23T07:15:22.369-06:00Amen, rdp46. Amen!Amen, rdp46. Amen!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-78517643101226005712011-06-23T01:08:40.573-06:002011-06-23T01:08:40.573-06:00Colleen, You are right until there is reform in th...Colleen, You are right until there is reform in the clerical system Catholicism can not move forward. Since it is more than evident that Rome will not do it and since the original Christians who followed the way of Christ had nothing to do with this type of clerical medieval structure , it seems that those who have any sensitivity to living in The Way of Christ will ignore the Episcopacy, its canon laws and not just its dead language masses but all the masses celebrated by members that are tied to this ugly clericalism. I suggest instead the original model of those who followed The Way of Christ and that is for small groups of people to meet in their own homes and celebrate their own Eucharist and have their own prayerful services. I suggest that our Children be helped to find their trusted mentors among trusted friends in these groups of mostly people in committed relationships. I suggest that anyone that harms our children should swiftly be reported to the police. This is probably the only way we can escape the deadening effects of these clerics who have certainly lost all their integrity as priests and human beings. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.com