tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post2150864647158127942..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: The Republican Catholic Church Gets Another Vatican Endorsementcolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-37693441946432834362011-07-22T02:54:14.351-06:002011-07-22T02:54:14.351-06:00p2p,
If Chaput is too party-political, that's...p2p,<br /><br />If Chaput is too party-political, that's a fair criticism. I rather got the impression however that he was being criticised as much if not more for his fidelity to orthodox theology and Catholic social teaching.<br /><br />I think you've got the magisterium much too closely aligned in your head with secular power. I helps to make a logical separation on the basis of the different origins, different purposes, different justifications, and (very) different safeguards. I won't criticise you for what I'd see as a flawed conflation of the two though, because it's such a common flawed understanding that it often seems the norm.<br />The Magisterium wants to get souls into heaven, and is backed up by the Holy Spirit and promise of Christ. The Republican/Democratic party wants to be re-elected, and is backed up by dodgy government borrowing, big business donations, and easily-swayed masses.<br /><br />;-)Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-73627016454469335902011-07-21T16:06:11.053-06:002011-07-21T16:06:11.053-06:00@Invictus,
Thanks for responding. Some my age are...@Invictus,<br /><br />Thanks for responding. Some my age are retired, but I am not. Stores now offer me their discount for seniors. You get the idea. <br /><br />I hope you get the next point.<br /><br />You follow this blog. There are themes, or threads, to this ongoing dialog. It has been well established, first and foremost by Chaput himself, that he has entered the political fray. You can read his book about it. He has taken the side of the Republican party many times, un-apologetically. The Republicans are greatly flawed but cunning for they have raised the hopes of Christian people like Chaput promising that they might actually legislate their agenda. It hasn't happened. It won't happen. (See Karl Rove's influence.) In the meantime Chaput has wasted his authority playing petty politics. <br /><br />If he was true to the teachings of the church he would speak out boldly about the failings of all politicians, encourage them to do better, but not act as a political hack, a partisan.<br /><br />Furthermore, there are many ways of accomplishing a goal and the coercion of legislation is only one of them. Jesus did not come as a legislator, but as a teacher. (As an aside I see the news of another one of Sarah Palin's "abstinence only" kids wasn't able to practice abstinence.) <br /><br />That's the problem with Chaput and the others, relying on their authority only. Yes, tell me about the magisterium, but I am not an authoritarian person, so I am unlikely to respond. <br /><br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-86642689536650917062011-07-21T09:40:58.507-06:002011-07-21T09:40:58.507-06:00And, again with the inappropriate labeling...
Vero...And, again with the inappropriate labeling...<br />VeronicaT'Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14497973041430354008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-83058558776772814472011-07-21T08:08:00.928-06:002011-07-21T08:08:00.928-06:00Colkoch,
"Shamans tend not to see the world ...Colkoch,<br /><br />"Shamans tend not to see the world in a <b>sin vs obedience</b> paradigm, but in a <b>healthy vs unhealthy</b>..."<br /><br />I'm unconvinced that they are different things.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-41616325108575971782011-07-21T08:04:18.929-06:002011-07-21T08:04:18.929-06:00p2p,
I was only referring the the clergy and theo...p2p,<br /><br />I was only referring the the clergy and theologians in the article, as they had clearly nailed their colours to the mast and have little excuse for their errors. Unless someone commenting is really very explicit about their position, it's unfair to assume that they're protestant rather than miscatechised. My comment therefore referred on to the dissidents in the article.<br /><br />The accusation of political bias seems misplaced, given that his attitude to social policy is pretty standard Catholic teaching, faithful to scripture and the sacred tradition. If he were shown to be pushing people into voting in particular ways, that would be different, but the article didn't give any evidence for that.<br /><br />"<i>Now help me out as I visualize you writing your next response, are you clutching your pearls "oh dear"? Or are you clutching a stick just waiting to whack the feet of these children who dare have their shoes in the aisle? Because your tone reminds me of some of those old-time religious who expect the rest of us to be sitting up straight, eyes forward, ready to copy down whatever is written on the chalkboard.</i>"<br /><br />Don't be so ageist, it's crass and repulsive. I'm in my early twenties, and I work with the elderly, and I hope your attitude is not representative of your character.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-2725331809370034532011-07-21T05:32:25.463-06:002011-07-21T05:32:25.463-06:00There is no monolithic Roman Catholic vote that I ...There is no monolithic Roman Catholic vote that I can see. AB Chaput's wasting his time. I think most of us think of ourselves as Americans first and Catholics second. Prior to the 2008 election the Bishop of Scranton penned a screed that was read at mass in all the central PA diocese pretty much stating that you're going to hell if you vote for Obama. Of course, Obama smoked McCain right in Martino's back yard.scriptohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17899049404620738944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-85501611315830484152011-07-20T18:40:16.665-06:002011-07-20T18:40:16.665-06:00Frank, in all honesty I can't help but see AB ...Frank, in all honesty I can't help but see AB Chaput as what his fellow natives call a 'political' chief. These are the chiefs that get in bed with the exploitive parts of white culture and do it for the money and power. One rarely finds a political chief who is also respected for their walk on the spiritual path. The one name I can think of who met those criteria was Wilma Mankiller. They say the cosmos has a punny sense of humor when it comes to names. The late Wilma Mankiller was so wonderfully named.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-30835299070668414612011-07-20T13:27:47.314-06:002011-07-20T13:27:47.314-06:00Back again; don't tell "Maddy!"
Rea...Back again; don't tell "Maddy!"<br /><br />Read Chaput's book "Render............" Check index. He quotes as authoritative some of the most reactionary political thinkers in America. You will also learn that the decline of our country started with and was pushed by JFK in '60 election.Chaput: A total creep!!! FrankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-11680898480825488792011-07-20T11:12:52.517-06:002011-07-20T11:12:52.517-06:00The Philadelphia Archdiocese is one of the most ra...The Philadelphia Archdiocese is one of the most racist in America. You do not necessarily see it. It hides behind the quiet traditional but dominant and very real Quaker sub-culture. When the mob gets wind of Chaput not being of pure white blood, the fireworks will begin. Not PC to say it but wait and see. The Vatican just pulled off the blunder of this century in his appointment there IMHO.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-8843897398792128842011-07-20T10:31:25.593-06:002011-07-20T10:31:25.593-06:00@T'Pel
Veronica, I too love the discussions t...@T'Pel<br /><br />Veronica, I too love the discussions that follow Colleen's excellent pieces. In the last six months or so I have learned more about my own faith and how it relates to Catholicism than in the previous 30 years. Thanks to you, the other regulars (TherP, Dennis etc.) and, of course, Colleen.<br /><br />This little band of outcasts and sinners addresses many of the topics I have longed to discuss, but had found no other forum until now. <br /><br />But it is pretty difficult to have an open discussion when someone's first comment is that the rest of us aren't Catholic. <br /><br />Well, isn't that special? How Conveeeenient.<br /><br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-49022085658961738232011-07-20T09:35:04.065-06:002011-07-20T09:35:04.065-06:00p2p, Invictus went further than that. When I calle...p2p, Invictus went further than that. When I called that person on the labeling as totally inappropriate, the response was definitely an attack on me. Not that it matters much to me. The attitude portrayed is not one that I would consider collegial in spite of differences. It is the collegial discussions that I come here for. Anything else, I ignore. I remember the names to read comments from as well as those to simply scroll past.<br /><br />Thank you, for your very able defense. I had thoughts about Invictus very similar to yours, just not so well stated; including the anti-democracy attitudes expressed by the Church in previous eras. Just goes to prove how very flawed the Church has been, can be and will continue to be. Which is why I refuse to follow the Church as a cultist.<br /><br />Colleen, I've learned a great deal from your blog and the comments/discussions. I do hope it continues.<br />VeronicaT'Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14497973041430354008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-66415664038774939562011-07-20T06:26:22.742-06:002011-07-20T06:26:22.742-06:00Invictus, it doesn't necessarily follow that a...Invictus, it doesn't necessarily follow that a shaman is more loving than an observant Catholic. It's an attitude towards others kind of thing. Shamans tend not to see the world in a sin vs obedience paradigm, but in a healthy vs unhealthy or in a lessons learned kind of way.<br /><br />In many respects they are much more like a good therapist who happens to do spiritual ritual as part of therapy, than they are a Roman Catholic priest. On the other hand, I have met priests I could have written the same thing about. They just weren't SSPX material.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-65009410096095682332011-07-20T05:43:46.894-06:002011-07-20T05:43:46.894-06:00@invictus
There are several "anonymous"...@invictus<br /><br />There are several "anonymous" here. I always sign "p2p". <br /><br />In the previous discussion on "A very serious call to action in Austria" I made one comment, the 25th one.<br /><br />Yes, I am upset by your previous comments and I made this clear in my earlier comment. Schismatic? No. I refer not to the SSPX but to the original pronouncements of Pius X in favor of traditional social hierarchy and against democracy. Chaput follows the same path. <br /><br />Writing in this medium often leads to problems because we struggle to understand context and meaning in the absence of tone and gesture.<br /><br />However, when you entered the other discussion with "Who are the protestants? And why are they masquerading as Catholics?" Were you referring to anyone other than those who had expressed themselves in previous comments? This is clearly an ad hominem remark and it clearly was meant to provoke. Re-read your remark. You imply we, those with whom you disagree, are protestants and later you confirm this by asking specifically "And yet, Veronica, if your faith is a protestant faith, might it be better served by a protestant organisation?" That's the usual approach of the so-called traditional or orthodox, to exclude those who are different, often by inviting the other to simply leave. <br /><br />The current topic begins with the issue of the bishop's inappropriate support of one American political party over another. <br /><br />Now help me out as I visualize you writing your next response, are you clutching your pearls "oh dear"? Or are you clutching a stick just waiting to whack the feet of these children who dare have their shoes in the aisle? Because your tone reminds me of some of those old-time religious who expect the rest of us to be sitting up straight, eyes forward, ready to copy down whatever is written on the chalkboard.<br /><br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-39539133856773336232011-07-20T02:21:02.594-06:002011-07-20T02:21:02.594-06:00I follow because it's interesting to me, becau...I follow because it's interesting to me, because it's relevant to my interests, and because it's no good for people (myself <i>or</i> others) to just be exposed to people who agree with them.<br /><br />Colkoch,<br /><br />Why is it more loving to be a shaman than to be an observant Catholic? I don't agree, but the OP does, and the people here are (bizarrely) cheering it. I think it's a legitimate query.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />You ad-hommed <i>me</i> by suggesting I might be a schismatic and closet fascist. You didn't even have the decency to answer my question...which if you go and have a look, don't even possess any of the ad-hom you so adhominously accuse me of! Ha, oh dear.Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-31901276639969151642011-07-19T22:14:07.447-06:002011-07-19T22:14:07.447-06:00p2p, Invictus is actually a follower of this blog....p2p, Invictus is actually a follower of this blog. It says so on the side bar. Truth is sometimes a slippery phenomenon, as in very hard to hang on to. We're all searching, debating, and irritating each other. That is unfortunately how truth is sometimes grasped.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-56566779225409923212011-07-19T20:46:02.342-06:002011-07-19T20:46:02.342-06:00Chaput is an interesting case. He would like to co...Chaput is an interesting case. He would like to command the voting of those in the pews. His own preference was to condemn Obama and fall silent on McCain's public political moral shortcomings. (Is it fair to mention the man's personal life, including marriages and confessed infidelity?) This isn't a recent or slight preference for Republicans. He accepted an appointment from George W. Bush. Chaput claimed, on the weakest of grounds that he opposed the war in Iraq, but if you read the text of that pastoral letter, he did so in the most equivocating manner. <br /><br />Colleen is right, Chaput is a Republican first. His belief in democracy falls more in line with that of Pius X. It is subservient to the religious hierarchy. Bush and McCain, not acceptable pro-life candidates at all, at least kissed his ring to buy his silence on their support for the illegal and immoral Iraq war. Bush, who presided over more executions than any other governor, with 152, clearly violated the pro-life teachings of the church. It should have offended Chaput who wrote, meekly, against the death penalty but failed to criticize any politicians at election time. Clearly his allegiance to the Republican party caused his silence. Georgie boy's alright because killing adults, even hundreds of thousands of them, isn't "intrinsically" evil. Moral relativism. Thanks Bishop.<br /><br />@ Invictus<br /><br />Are you are a follower of Pius X, opposed to democracy, a believer in fealty to the hierarchy and the "noblesse oblige" of charity over justice? It seems you come to this blog looking for heresy, quick with ad hominem remarks, keen to misrepresent the positions and discussion as a means of instigating trouble. <br /><br />I'd be interested in your interpretation of the parable of the good Samaritan. And you like the Latin, what does "Catholic" mean? <br /><br />p2pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-5797333979111325162011-07-19T20:36:48.084-06:002011-07-19T20:36:48.084-06:00This is basically in answer to Invictus and Rat-bi...This is basically in answer to Invictus and Rat-biter. Today as part of my always in vogue and mandatory in service training we had a therapist who works with Borderline Personality Disorder. She's very good and very spiritual. One of may tasks at work is to occasionally answer the suicide crisis line. This is not a therapy line, it's an intervention line. BPDO represents about 60% of our callers. One of the things she said was Christianity actually has a lot of useful therapeutic wisdom for Borderlins. It's all about non judgment and how a therapist can convince folks to deal with emotion.<br /><br />Emotion, is in it's core representation, about a five second phenomenon. That's true for a lot of physiological responses. What gives an emotion it's lasting power, is the interpretation we give the emotion.<br />Where that interpretation comes from is another matter, but germaine to this comment is the fact anger is an interpretation frequently given to fear inducing things.<br /><br />Love conquers fear, everytime, all the time. I dont' think AB Chaput has really ever understood the TRUTH of this. I pray someday he will.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-10982720719593596032011-07-19T16:25:47.647-06:002011-07-19T16:25:47.647-06:00"Ahead of the 2008 elections, Chaput publishe..."Ahead of the 2008 elections, Chaput published a book titled Render unto Caesar, insisting that "people who take God seriously will not remain silent about their faith." <br /><br />STM that is what a bishop, who is a teacher of Christ's faithful, *should* be doing. If the Incarnation is a reality, and not an irrelevant formula, it will affect the "secular" side of life. It can do that in wrong ways - but there are also right ways. <br /><br />Bishops have impossible jobs - just like any Christian: unfortunately for them, their position of leadership makes their failures far more obvious than the sins of those whose pastors they are. The lack of privacy these days exaggerates that. I'm sorry for him - he seems to be a *major* hate-figure in some quarters. <br /><br />IMO, people should pray for, & ask for Godss blessing on, their "hate-figures" - "liberals" could pray for Abp.Chaput & Bill Donoghue, & "conservatives" could pray for Abp. Mahony, Hans Kueng, Joan Chittister :) That way, all of us would be united in spirit, however much we disagree intellectually. And the terrible tribalism in the Church would be gravely weakened. This would change us too - and that would really help to realise the presence of the Kingship of God. <br /><br />All the bad stuff, in the Church & in us, needs attending to - but if God can work in His Church, IOW in very flawed human beings, why should we let the bad stuff have the last word ? That would be like stopping at Calvary and not going on to the Resurrection. What's become of the gift of *hope* among Catholics ?Rat-biternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-74359626306063509612011-07-19T16:21:03.730-06:002011-07-19T16:21:03.730-06:00If I understand correctly...you're all angry b...If I understand correctly...you're all angry because someone has been put forward to a position who affirms Church teaching, rather than someone who is a shamanic pro-abortionist?<br /><br />Or, have I misunderstood?Invictus_88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03446202385252763436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-5878483241254186602011-07-19T11:58:16.083-06:002011-07-19T11:58:16.083-06:00Thanks for the update. Philadelphia has always be...Thanks for the update. Philadelphia has always been a conservative Archdiocese. I guess we have to hope for the best here in PA.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-74581594378619707622011-07-19T10:00:53.333-06:002011-07-19T10:00:53.333-06:00Rewarded for "lap dog" service. Nothing...Rewarded for "lap dog" service. Nothing is changing.kevin57https://www.blogger.com/profile/01681985465980196347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-34301182055732745412011-07-19T09:02:04.053-06:002011-07-19T09:02:04.053-06:00Ever since I first began to encounter Archbishop C...Ever since I first began to encounter Archbishop Chaput and learn about his activities, I've mentally turned my eyes back and forth from the man Chaput is vowed to follow as a religious mentor, Francis of Assisi, and Chaput. <br /><br />And I have to say, God help me, I have never been able to see the face of Francis--not in any shape, form, or fashion--in the belligerent face of Charles Chaput.<br /><br />A church whose pastoral leaders embodied the spirit and values of Francis of Assisi might turn things around and begin to convince people of its fundamental claims once again.<br /><br />A church whose brand is Benedict and Chaput: not so much. This is a church headed nowhere quickly. Nowhere good.<br /><br />I'm deeply grateful to be at such a distance from the church those men lead. And I'm pretty sure in the place they've put a lot of us nobodies and unwanted souls, Francis is to be found.<br /><br />And Jesus, too.William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-40470058672260833992011-07-19T07:39:02.010-06:002011-07-19T07:39:02.010-06:00TheraP I hate to say it, but I think you're ri...TheraP I hate to say it, but I think you're right.<br /><br />NCR is running along interview with Chaput done by John Allen. Of course Allen doesn't ask the real tough questions, he pretty much sticks to the questions where Chaput has his bullet points all in order.<br /><br />No questions on the budget, our multiple wars, Cultural prevalence for heterosexual serial monogamy, internal doctrinal witch hunts, preferential option for conservatives of any stripe and on and on and on.<br /><br />As Phil says, we can hope for the best, but must be prepared to deal with the worst, and Benedict has done everything in his power to raise to ascendancy those who, as Chaput himself says, "obey first, think later." Oh and confuse ritual piety with spiritual depth.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-68186921319608847182011-07-19T06:44:31.382-06:002011-07-19T06:44:31.382-06:00Jesus would never cut the mustard in today's R...Jesus would never cut the mustard in today's Roman church. He'd get the knife too. And his attacker wouldn't have to hang himself!TheraPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684120043427738135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-19677726010779301722011-07-19T03:03:25.852-06:002011-07-19T03:03:25.852-06:00Thanks Colleen for giving background on this man -...Thanks Colleen for giving background on this man - hope for the best prepare for the worst may be the best way of describing the modus operandi in the church for many at present. <br />The problem is that Benedict has already lined up his troops so the choice is predetermined.<br />Scary and sad and yes makes me angry too.<br /><br />BlessingsBlue Eyed Ennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06181985609681328032noreply@blogger.com