tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post3977890700371770173..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: I Seek Answers To A Fundamental Questioncolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-10093481025147269792010-12-30T18:14:35.030-07:002010-12-30T18:14:35.030-07:00Veronica, you are so right particularly when you r...Veronica, you are so right particularly when you realized that an ignorant authoritarian can be in fact evil and that personal choices can not always be kind. There are times that creativity and or lack of self understanding cause us to make choices that in fact are hurtful or in a better circumstance seemingly hurtful to others. You are further right that in the best of circumstances we and others will learn from these choices. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-48581968538710757972010-12-30T08:47:46.625-07:002010-12-30T08:47:46.625-07:00With the provision that one person can not gain so...With the provision that one person can not gain so much power in society as to unleash something like a holocaust, I am not so concerned about personal evil either. I see the journey through this life as more one of growth and development which by definition requires change. We make mistakes - either deliberately or unintentionally - and we learn from them to better ourselves and the lives of those around us. I know I personally have learned far more from my mistakes than I ever did from getting it right the first time.<br /><br />But there are also times when either choice made can be the right one. And either choice made can mean something less than kindness to others. This is where I see things not as evil/innocent but as the temporal and limited in power vs the timelessness and all-powerful attributes of God.<br />VeronicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-36282648657059737362010-12-29T22:20:34.056-07:002010-12-29T22:20:34.056-07:00Veronica, I like to think life is all about person...Veronica, I like to think life is all about personal growth and development and kindness to others. The woods are dark, lovely and deep, I have things to do and people to see before I sleep. I am not so worried about personal evil as I am about loss of personal creativity. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-63648452078819773712010-12-29T20:07:37.469-07:002010-12-29T20:07:37.469-07:00"The Diocese of Lincoln does not see any reas..."The Diocese of Lincoln does not see any reason for the existence of Ewers and her organization."<br /><br />I didn't notice this the first time I read it; it's one thing to say that you don't "see any reason for the existence of" an organization. But the diocese sees no reason for the existence of Ewers herself? Well, that's not very nice, is it?PrickliestPearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07606660660913560540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-53853862958898161872010-12-29T16:13:14.048-07:002010-12-29T16:13:14.048-07:00Dennis, I can't tell you how utterly shocked I...Dennis, I can't tell you how utterly shocked I was the first time I really HEARD that part of the Good Friday/Easter services. After all the exhortations about avoiding sin, the damning of original sin and the need for baptism/conversion, the need of penance and repentance for committed sin, fear of fire and brimstone, etc, etc... It was one of those moments in life for me. It took some real pondering and thinking to sort it out. Not sure that I have sorted it yet, but I'm closer I think.<br /><br />Still, if I recall correctly, it was Adam and only Adam thanked. Eve was left out.<br />VeronicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-14456189027698857622010-12-29T15:46:02.401-07:002010-12-29T15:46:02.401-07:00"The Diocese of Lincoln does not see any reas...<i>"The Diocese of Lincoln does not see any reason for the existence of Ewers and her organization."</i><br /><br />Pot meet kettle.<br /><br />I found this interesting: <a href="http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205" rel="nofollow">Evolution, Evil and Original Sin </a>scriptohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17899049404620738944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-79042475890339235252010-12-29T15:34:20.883-07:002010-12-29T15:34:20.883-07:00Veronica, you make and interesting point. Had Ada...Veronica, you make and interesting point. Had Adam not eaten from the tree of knowledge, we as a human race would be left as children. When Adam and Eve Ate the Fruit, they moved on to a life of pain, growth and development. They became human. So yes, we should thank them for their curiosity to begin human creativity! dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-71228322869759639932010-12-29T12:59:38.571-07:002010-12-29T12:59:38.571-07:00Perhaps the original sin is a two step process sim...Perhaps the original sin is a two step process similar to baptism/confirmation or ordination as a priest vs. elevation to a bishopric. In the case of original sin it is transmitted at conception and finalized at birth? I don't know but it would explain some things. It really seems to me they are splitting hairs and I have to wonder why so much effort must be expended in the exercise. <br /><br />I personally don't see it as a case of original sin vs. the Purity of God. I see it more as the difference in being temporal and limited vs. timeless and all-powerful. We in this life have no perfect answers. And every possible answer has side effects whether intended or not. We must make choices. But at least it also explains how we can thank Adam in liturgy for committing that original sin without which we would not be human.<br />VeronicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-90179229026616059872010-12-29T12:15:56.633-07:002010-12-29T12:15:56.633-07:00Curious to know if anyone at the hospital will be ...Curious to know if anyone at the hospital will be inviting any of the Churches of the Union of Utrecht to celebrate Mass now.newtocorinthhttp://newtocorinth.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-75120370004843671852010-12-29T01:08:24.087-07:002010-12-29T01:08:24.087-07:00I have said a few times on this board, the priesth...I have said a few times on this board, the priesthood of baptism is the important one for Christian believers. There are many European theologians educated in Catholic Universities and mostly priests who say that for a person to consecrate the Eucharist, it just takes a group to select that person. No nonsense ordinations by a Bishop or nonsense consecrations of Bishops. <br /><br />This bit of knowledge, indeed, would be too frightening for the typical Bishop to consider. It would be considered not catholic theology by the holy inquisition. The punishment for its theological utterance would be the murdering of a carrier, unless the theologian went to a non catholic university. dennisrdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-36440983928424679932010-12-29T00:45:34.807-07:002010-12-29T00:45:34.807-07:00Prickliest your last sentence surely does seem to ...Prickliest your last sentence surely does seem to be the main impetus for the illogical theology surrounding original sin. It's pretty obvious the insistence on mandatums for theologians and adherence to bishop interpreted ERDs for Catholic hospitals is also all about promoting and protecting the cultic priesthood with it's absolutely essential place in Catholic salvation.<br /><br />When Benedict more or less described limbo as a theological conceptualization that Catholicism no longer held near and dear I was somewhat floored. I couldn't help but think of all the parents who suffered a great deal of angst over the idea their unbaptized baby was not in heaven as they buried their child outside the fences of consecrated cemeteries.<br /><br />How long oh Lord must your people put up with the machinations of the cultic priesthood? How long will it take us to grow up and get over the whole notion?colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-66629176886479876252010-12-29T00:05:54.116-07:002010-12-29T00:05:54.116-07:00Kallisti,
Firstly, Mary was not herself a virgin ...Kallisti,<br /><br /><i>Firstly, Mary was not herself a virgin birth, which would have to be the case to escape the evil of her paternal bloodline.</i><br /><br />That's a good point. We might put it a different way: If it was theologically necessary for Mary to be "immaculately conceived" in order to conceive a sinless Jesus, why wasn't it necessary for her parents to be so conceived? And her parents' parents, and so on? Something other than logic was operating the day that doctrine was dreamt up.<br /><br /><i>And secondly, if God could miraculously hold back this contagion in Mary's case w/o need of a savior, then why not do that for the rest of humanity as well?</i><br /><br />Also a good point, though I would put it differently. Traditionally, it has been argued that Jesus was responsible for his own mother's immaculate conception--in other words, there was still need for a "saviour" in her case. But your basic point is still valid. The traditional doctrine of original sin wasn't accepted because it made sense, but because it served the ideological ends of the cultic priesthood.PrickliestPearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07606660660913560540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-10425042947631404202010-12-28T23:38:56.557-07:002010-12-28T23:38:56.557-07:00The fact that most blastocysts fail to implant, as...The fact that most blastocysts fail to implant, as Dennis mentioned, is the Achilles heel of those who oppose abortion-under-any-circumstances, especially when it's on theological grounds (which it probably always is). A 60% failure rate is a very conservative estimate (an embryology professor once told me 75% was "probably a conservative estimate"!).<br /><br />I've always assumed that the theology underlying the "preferential option for the fetus" had much to do with the fact that the fetus hasn't had the opportunity to experience the magic of baptism, and thus be cleansed of the "stain of original sin." Fourth century superstitions don't mesh well with the ethical demands of 21st century, unfortunately.<br /><br />Contemporary Catholic theologians have moved well beyond that magical view of baptism and original sin, but old beliefs die hard. When Cardinal Ratzinger had the audacity to call the traditional justification for infant baptism "unenlightened" (which was putting it politely) he drew intense criticism from traditionalists. Google "Ratzinger," "baptism," and "unenlightened" sometime and you'll see what I mean.<br /><br />But that's the big problem with Catholic tradition: Nothing ever gets thrown away. New truths aren't allowed to displace old errors. You can't call yourself infallible one day and try to correct your previous errors the next. (Someone should ask Olmsted if he still believes in "limbo.")<br /><br />It appears to me that the only real consequence of the Phoenix hospital losing its official Roman Catholic affiliation is that they can no longer have Masses there. If that means getting out from under the thumb of someone like Olmsted, that's a pretty small price to pay.PrickliestPearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07606660660913560540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-90303049727107893692010-12-28T23:13:20.845-07:002010-12-28T23:13:20.845-07:00Ye olde Augustinian "logic" (if that wor...Ye olde Augustinian "logic" (if that word can be used here) on original sin was this- It's transmitted through *the sperm* even though Eve was the one who ate the forbidden fruit, but then again everyone knows those Female Women thingies don't give any real contribution to making a baby, right? *Facepalm*<br /><br />This also makes Mary's case more than a little odd for a couple reasons. Firstly, Mary was not herself a virgin birth, which would have to be the case to escape the evil of her paternal bloodline. And secondly, if God could miraculously hold back this contagion in Mary's case w/o need of a savior, then why not do that for the rest of humanity as well? <br /><br />The whole thing just makes no sense, and seems to be deeply related to this age old misogynist sperm worship thing we've sen so often before.<br /><br />KallistiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-13698246139227108142010-12-28T21:52:16.309-07:002010-12-28T21:52:16.309-07:00Coleen, The Church originally approved the use of ...Coleen, The Church originally approved the use of Cesarian Section so that a Baby would have a chance at baptism, even if the surgery killed the woman. I think there has been continued attempts by the conservative curia to prove that Humanum Vitae was correct. <br /><br />The principal effect of most birth control pills is prevention of ovulation. There is also a secondary side effect with some pills causing the uterus to be less likely to implant a blasocyst. The church in the 1960's and 70's taught that the use of the BC pill was wrong because it violated the natural law, but by calling it an abortant they try to make their case much stronger. It is interesting that many things will cause a uterus to be less likely to implant including, vigorous exercise, depression and other mental conditions, food deprivation, many drugs including most cancer drugs etc. The church does not see these situations as causing abortions as they do BC pills. They have no answer when it is pointed out that over 60% of blastocysts in nature do not implant. You see just like my once young son, these men hate to be told that they are wrong. <br /><br />The other effect of humanum Vitae that many do not realize is that the Bishops in each diocese now demand to license "Catholic" theologians that teach in Universities in their diocese. Perhaps it was because over 100 Theologians, mostly from our own Catholic University came out with a full page add in the front section of the NY Times after Humanum Vitae declaring it was OK to use the pill and still consider yourself a good Catholic. <br /><br />It was bad enough that Paul refused to use the consensus of not one but two Vatican Commissions composed of the best of the Catholic worlds theologians and scientists finding that the Church should OK the BC pill. The Conservative curia have been attempting to "prove themselves right" ever since and no moral Catholic Theologian will speak up because it means that they are either declared a non catholic theologian or that they have excommunicated themselves if they go further and say that there are some conditions that even abortion is OK. This is why the idea of Academic Freedom and a Catholic Hospital’s right to form ethics committees go hand and hand. <br /><br />These three Bishops may force the hand of some Catholic Universities. I have often made the point that Catholic Universities can only be catecatical centers if they allow Bishops to license theologians and academic freedom to seek truth is important because many other academic fields other than theology like medicine were involved. No Academic study could seek truth if a Bishop had to approve what was thought by theologians and or historians, scientists or philosophers. You can see with the Phoenix Hospital situation, bishops and some conservative theologians believe that they also know what is best concerning the medical treatment of patients. This omniscient belief of some current conservative theologians and Bishops has now eclipsed the serious problem that the Church got itself into with Galileo for we now have bishops telling scientists when life begins and what cells can be used for the development of new treatments for disease.rdp46https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427786268228285222noreply@blogger.com