tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post459763966830831560..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: In Germany: Catholics Must Pay To Praycolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-13860659995873891442012-09-28T23:50:31.500-06:002012-09-28T23:50:31.500-06:00Communism....involuntary committment to community....Communism....involuntary committment to community.<br />Church...voluntary committment to community.<br /> <br />At least the definition used to be clear. Now that people are going to have to pay to attend church and benefit from its sacraments (same idea as indulgences...pay your way into Heaven)...church has become Communist. The implication is...if one wants to belong to the community...he/she must pay to be committed to it. Otherwise, that person is banished from its benefits involuntarily...regardless of income. In Communism, one could never leave the community voluntarily. The fear of being killed for leaving kept many in the community involuntarily. At least the church has not turned to killing its members physically, yet...just financially...so that no food is left to feed a person's self or family with...or to heat the house...or put gas in the car.<br />It is the same as killing, in my opinion...however, very stealthily.Sean T. Taeschnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-31791052823193270282012-09-25T07:18:37.708-06:002012-09-25T07:18:37.708-06:00Rat I'm still trying to get my head around the...Rat I'm still trying to get my head around the fact a government connected tax supercedes one's baptismal rights. To me this is a clear cut case of simony.<br /><br />I understand the Bishops are saying it takes a public declaration in front of some magistrate renouncing your faith to get out of this tax, and they see that as declaring yourself in apostasy. The trouble with that is there is no conscience option for people who don't want to enable bishops, and the last I checked the State and tax system was not God.<br /><br />Maybe it's all a big experiment to see how far the fear of hell still plays in Germany.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-17177628426239303052012-09-24T20:28:27.885-06:002012-09-24T20:28:27.885-06:00This may help to answer the question: http://jimmy...This may help to answer the question: http://jimmyakin.com/2005/08/simony_at_sunda.html<br /><br />There is some similarity with this business, which helps. Rat-biternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-79936388413614604502012-09-24T20:22:06.325-06:002012-09-24T20:22:06.325-06:00I'm not horrified, stunned or disgusted - I...I'm not horrified, stunned or disgusted - I'm shocked.<br /><br />The most natural interpretation of this: <br /><br />"Germany’s Roman Catholic bishops have decreed that people who opt out of a “church tax” should not be given sacraments and religious burials, getting tougher on worshippers who choose not to pay.<br />Alarmed by a wave of dissenting Catholics quitting the faith, the bishops issued a decree on Thursday declaring such defection “a serious lapse” and listed a wide range of church activities from which they must be excluded"<br /><br />- is that the bishops are, however indirectly, committing simony. The evil of this sin, which Saint Peter rebuked severely in Acts 8, is that it seeks to put a price on God's grace, which is free, gratis and for nothing to human beings. It cannot be priced. So to make reception of the sacrsaments dependent, not on baptism, but on payment of a Church tax, is to put a price on the sacraments. There is no way that this can be tolerable, let alone right. If people are to be excluded from the sacraments, $$$ & £££ can & must have no part at all in their exclusion. <br /><br />From Acts 8 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+8%3A9-24&version=NIV The passage seems to be grimly appropriate. Rat-biternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-64553225306344913582012-09-23T11:28:15.535-06:002012-09-23T11:28:15.535-06:00"They cannot work in the church or its instit..."They cannot work in the church or its institutions, such as schools and hospitals, or be active in church-sponsored associations such as charity groups or choirs."<br /><br />They are Nuts!! I'm not really surprised by this, because I've seen it coming for some time now. And it has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus and everything to do with power and money, lording it over others. <br /><br />With work being scarce, many people will pay the damn tax, unfortunately. <br /><br />"They cannot be godparents for Catholic children and must get a bishop’s permission to marry a Catholic in a church ceremony. “If the person who left the Church shows no sign of repentance before death, a religious burial can be refused,” it added.""<br /><br />That "must get a bishop's permission to marry a Catholic" really takes the cake. <br /><br />I am sure that the "sign of repentance before death" would be to fork over some money. <br /><br />I'm glad that I have come to terms with those in the institutional Church who would deny the Eucharist, deny work, deny community, deny a "christian" burial. God is much bigger and merciful than the institutional Church and all one really be concerned about is being rejected by Jesus in life and in death.<br /><br />Fran<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-4332584058668852892012-09-23T09:56:15.994-06:002012-09-23T09:56:15.994-06:00Yes, Terence, you hit the nail on the head. What ...Yes, Terence, you hit the nail on the head. What is clearly in order is a re-evangelization of clerical structure the characters that are in place. This will not happen an this juncture and is why it is necessary for Heath Care Systems, Universities and Independent Catholic Churches to maintain and grow a structure to replace the iconoclastic deadness that is Rome. dennisUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12522679695624209390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-69464095743973128882012-09-23T08:56:38.451-06:002012-09-23T08:56:38.451-06:00Colleen, I posted about this to the Archbishop Cra...Colleen, I posted about this to the Archbishop Cranmer blog (C of E but a great blog) as a guest poster under His Grace's invitation<br /><br />You'll find it here<br /><br />http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.co.uk/<br /><br />I'm now getting the ad-hominem attacks there, but at least I tried (and it's getting a fairly wide audience). <br /><br />A link to your blog has been placed by His Grace in the comments section so I'm afraid if a load of maniacs turn up here frothing at the mouth, it's all my fault. Sorry. :(Olivia Cooknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-25403331055301198582012-09-23T07:24:12.047-06:002012-09-23T07:24:12.047-06:00Intentional Communities are becoming a bigger tren...Intentional Communities are becoming a bigger trend. As long as Rome continues on it's current path, their existence will only accelerate. There just aren't enough priests, and the one's we are getting are disconnected from the people they are supposed to serve. The mentality seems to be the other way around. They laity exist to serve them and their vision of Church.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-61228964687935614642012-09-23T07:19:40.838-06:002012-09-23T07:19:40.838-06:00Rome should read a lot of the Gospels. I was read...Rome should read a lot of the Gospels. I was reading something the other day by a periti at Vatican II, one of the points he made that I hadn't really considered previously, was that in his estimation the fact the Council centered the liturgy on the Gospels, and insisted the laity understand the Gospels, was the biggest contribution of the Council. No longer was the Bible a mysterious book read only by Protestants. Catholics were expected to read it and understand it as well. They were encouraged to engage in Bible study and come to their own conclusions.<br /><br />He maintained this more than anything opened up the idea of free will and conscience to the laity. The more I think about this, the more I think he's right. The teaching authorities no longer own the Bible and how it's to be interpreted. That's a very good thing.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-32278345755692972082012-09-23T01:00:02.846-06:002012-09-23T01:00:02.846-06:00Perhaps Rome should read the Gospel of Matthew mor...Perhaps Rome should read the Gospel of Matthew more often.<br /><br />"And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.” Matthew 21:12–17Olivia Cooknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-26390686864725499032012-09-22T22:11:25.758-06:002012-09-22T22:11:25.758-06:00It does illuminate at least one thing about the in...It does illuminate at least one thing about the institutional church that is still applicable in the US. At any point when the church has half a chance to use to coercive power of government to enforce its own rules - it will in fact do so. Yes, I understand that we have an obligation to contribute the funds needed to run the parish to the extent we are able. I really don't have trouble with this concept PROVIDED there is reasonable accountability that the fund are well and truly spent. I would even make allowances for some disagreement with how the money is spent and still consider my donations needful. Holding the sacraments unless I pay ransom? Sorry. Can't see Christ having anything to do with this.<br /><br />For the clerics decide for me how much of my treasure I MUST hand over with no accountability for its use? No. Just no. I don't need to make contributions to the church for them to run political campaign ads for example. I can decide for myself what political campaigns I wish to donate to and cut out the middle man. <br /><br />I do truly hope that what this means is that more people will break away from the institution and find their faith community at home with a few friends, neighbors and relatives. As Christ said, where 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name, He is there. And that can be sacrament enough.<br />VeronicaT'Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14497973041430354008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-42634790938303046212012-09-22T12:49:55.422-06:002012-09-22T12:49:55.422-06:00I have just sent a guest post on this subject to a...I have just sent a guest post on this subject to another Christian blogger, will link it back here when it goes live. Frankly, the best thing we can do is get this as public as we can, as fast as we can, and hope there is someone left in Rome with the brains to see just what damage this is going to do to the Church.<br /><br />Any idea which Canon Law applies to simony? It was prohibited in Canon 717 in the 1919 version, but seems to have moved since then.<br /><br />God bless you, and thank you for bring this to everyone's attention.Olivia Cooknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-21385857445073985772012-09-22T12:03:59.971-06:002012-09-22T12:03:59.971-06:00I know Olivia. I am utterly stunned/disgusted wit...I know Olivia. I am utterly stunned/disgusted with this decision. Whatever happened to the idea that the Church was a hospital for sinners, and about the poor? In Germany it's now about neither. It's about money and power. The scales should be falling off the eyes of more and more Catholics who truly want a Church of Jesus.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-44718267108476698712012-09-22T11:32:27.508-06:002012-09-22T11:32:27.508-06:00I'm horrified. And I honestly didn't thin...I'm horrified. And I honestly didn't think anything the Church could do would still horrify me, but this does.<br /><br />Frankly, if I was a German, I'd be refusing to pay this tax, then publicly donating an equal amount of money to a Catholic charity which wouldn't use it to pay lawyers to fight sexual abuse cases, then sitting in my local parish church every Sunday to see if they had the balls to refuse me communion.<br /><br />To be fair, I would imagine very few German parish priests would be stupid enough to do so.<br /><br />The only word for this, is as you say, simony. And I am disgusted.Olivia Cooknoreply@blogger.com