tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post5289738965095751421..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: For Francis It's All About Priests----Just Like Himselfcolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-45805302137242007402014-03-07T20:52:07.614-07:002014-03-07T20:52:07.614-07:00I believe you need a more up to date translation. ...I believe you need a more up to date translation. Your wording is from the Douay version which indeed refers to the "hands of the priesthood". The New Revised Standard refers to the "hands of the council of elders", the New Jerusalem Bible refers to the "body of elders", and the New American translation refers to the "presbyterate", as does the original King James version. <br /><br />No matter how they are translated, the references most certainly do NOT refer to a sacerdotal priesthood as understood by Roman Catholics today.rwarnellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-79519131999713032014-03-07T18:37:16.062-07:002014-03-07T18:37:16.062-07:00Also, the words, "ordo" and "ordina...Also, the words, "ordo" and "ordination", customarily have generic meanings, such as order, instruction, arrangement, appointment, apart from the appropriated ritualistic, cultic meaning which has come to be attached to them.sylvesterpatsteffennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-25117370578347499182014-03-07T16:04:18.494-07:002014-03-07T16:04:18.494-07:00I would like to see the original documents with a ...I would like to see the original documents with a very good linguist at my side, to see if the term 'priest' is actually present or if it's some other religious designation that is not analogous to how we have been taught to conceive of the priesthood. Paul, for instance, was not an original Apostle but a self declared Apostle based on his word. I happen to think he demonstrated more spiritual ability than his word, but never the less, he was not an original Apostle. Now a days this kind of personal revelation is looked at with skepticism and it should be.<br /><br /><br /><br />Paul may have seen himself as some sort of Christ appointed temple priest, but no other Apostle, who actually experiences Jesus saw themselves the same way. They saw themselves as passing on Jesus' teachings, not passing on ritual and there is a vast difference.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-65177290972904851172014-03-07T15:00:42.065-07:002014-03-07T15:00:42.065-07:00Just out of curiosity, when Saint Paul wrote to Ti...Just out of curiosity, when Saint Paul wrote to Timothy:<br /><br />"Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood"<br /><br />to what priesthood was he referring if the priesthood didn't exist for several generations after Christ?<br /><br />According to Acts, St. Paul himself ordained Timothy.Smartuckusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-26777768624574496512014-03-07T11:51:03.018-07:002014-03-07T11:51:03.018-07:00Yes, it would be nice, and very Christ-like, which...Yes, it would be nice, and very Christ-like, which should be a prerequisite to hold such a high position as Pope representing the People of God.BaptizedBabyBoomernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-25982430808870315682014-03-07T11:43:28.420-07:002014-03-07T11:43:28.420-07:00It would be nice if Francis could wrap his heart a...It would be nice if Francis could wrap his heart and mind around who is the real Christlike innocent victim in this mess, and it's not the priesthood. It wasn't priests who were led to a personal crucifixion for which there is rarely a resurrection. It was the priests who did the leading and the innocent followed precisely because their crucifiers were priests.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-67670705272058417282014-03-07T11:36:08.924-07:002014-03-07T11:36:08.924-07:00I think that a lot of us feel as you do, Colleen, ...I think that a lot of us feel as you do, Colleen, about Pope Francis, especially after his latest comments. He had the opportunity to create great change in the Church, and he is letting it slip right through his fingers, letting the Holy Spirit just fly away. He seems almost insincere now in his brotherhood with his fellow priests and overlooking the rest of us and especially the victims of sexual abuse by priests. <br /><br />I can see that others in the rank and file in the Church who prefer to parrot talk what others say who are content with the status quo are now repeating Lombardi's and Pope Francis' views that they have about supposedly doing everything possible to protect children from abuse by priests. I've noticed it in the comments at NCR. They seem to think that this clears up the matter and anyone who doesn't agree is just wrong or that the priests are being victimized.<br /><br /><br />Pope Francis' idea of priesthood, which is in sync with Opus Dei views & keeping that very bleak backwardness and anti-Christness locked tight in its mindset, keeps the entire Church on the course of victimhood rather than on to reform and/or growth for all humanity that is left stunted, deformed into the narrow projections of a very possessive view of the priesthood.BaptizedBabyBoomernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-66907190379768431812014-03-07T08:32:16.116-07:002014-03-07T08:32:16.116-07:00The real fact is that Baptism and not Holy Orders ...The real fact is that Baptism and not Holy Orders is the important sacrament. Holy orders did not exist for several generations after the death of Christ. This is a Man-made sacrament. The ability to forgive sins and consecrate the Eucharist was used in the homes of many Christians by the elected of the baptized.rdp46noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-51853407236053976752014-03-07T07:37:14.015-07:002014-03-07T07:37:14.015-07:00I think that the sacrament of holy orders should b...I think that the sacrament of holy orders should be added onto baptism so that the pope and bishops can be concerned about the well being of everyone in the church.Molly Roachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-82283667768303711052014-03-07T03:36:02.693-07:002014-03-07T03:36:02.693-07:00"Until he can somehow set his priesthood asid..."Until he can somehow set his priesthood aside, he can not identify with the <br />concerns of the laity."<br />===============================<br />Right to the point! It's in clerical DNA that clerics (alone AS MALES) are in direct line as conduits of grace to the (benighted) people. Goes back to the Garden of Eve myth. Why can't clerics understand that thinking of onetime based on the small worldview understanding of the time CANNOT with credibility be imposed on a time which has seen through and exposed the errors of old and misinformed understandings?<br />Maybe it is less about "setting his priesthood aside" than it is about crediting the universal character of priesthood, as specifically confirmed in the baptismal rite.sylvesterpatsteffennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-63170627286061308972014-03-06T22:31:09.295-07:002014-03-06T22:31:09.295-07:00Patriarchalism is a male narcissistic disease and ...Patriarchalism is a male narcissistic disease and it helps create the circumstances that keep the world a slave to those in powerful positions such a Putin and every other bloody dictator. Pope Francis has marked his one year anniversary as Pope to declare war on women, imho. He is a disgrace. He dishonors every woman, including the Blessed Mother. The Church is really dead. It just does not realize it yet.ex-Catholicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-36963966049316311802014-03-06T19:38:16.586-07:002014-03-06T19:38:16.586-07:00not a cynic . . . a skeptic, perhaps . . . but i w...not a cynic . . . a skeptic, perhaps . . . but i would say a realistDennis Hayesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-20493061797302278222014-03-06T16:38:17.500-07:002014-03-06T16:38:17.500-07:00Two big things which can not be changed because of...Two big things which can not be changed because of the effect on the whole house of cards are the unique status of the priesthood and the outdated and essentially myth based sex/gender morality codes. The abuse crisis points a large finger at both of these issues.<br /><br />Sometimes I too think I have let cynicism over take my thinking, but not on this issue. For me this is crystal clear. Roman Catholicism is going to choke to death over the priesthood, and maybe it should. Seriously, these men think so much of their own special place in the Catholic scheme of things they are willing to let global Catholicism starve for sacramental service rather than change one damn thing about the priesthood and so many other problems are directly linked to the theology of the priesthood.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-38318496743064558692014-03-06T15:46:57.860-07:002014-03-06T15:46:57.860-07:00Colleen, I suppose that I should have expected thi...Colleen, I suppose that I should have expected this from the Pope. He is, after all, a product of the clerical culture that has existed for centuries. I also think that plenty of chit-chat was exchanged among the cardinals in the conclave that elected him. This chit-chat probably included a "quid pro quo" with Bergoglio: " If you leave the big things as they are and let us manage it , we will go along with your "love the poor and the marginalized" schtick. " "Just do not do anything to change the status quo."<br />Yes, I am a cynic. Getting too old, I guess. <br />Come Lord Jesus! Do we ever need you!Johnnoreply@blogger.com