tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post6757384592153631215..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Does Pope Francis Really Want His Message For Clergy To Roll Down Past The Vatican Hills?colkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-87120158889332284012014-03-22T09:34:14.810-06:002014-03-22T09:34:14.810-06:00Both are rooted in the fear of authority and failu...Both are rooted in the fear of authority and failure. They are designed to create members who think and act alike and they severely punish those who get outside the box....except for the really intelligent ones who are allowed to get outside the box, like in Military Intelligence or the Vatican Diplomatic corps.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-35301790137904467952014-03-22T09:32:10.089-06:002014-03-22T09:32:10.089-06:00What are those vocations exactly Invictus? Last I...What are those vocations exactly Invictus? Last I knew, the gay vocation was to bear their cross of enforced loneliness and suffer for the sake of...... heterosexuals I guess.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-13965775827489955602014-03-22T09:29:57.352-06:002014-03-22T09:29:57.352-06:00It's mental Invictus, not sacramental. And ye...It's mental Invictus, not sacramental. And yes, both the Sacrament of Reconcilliation and spiritual mentoring can be training wheels. In the case of the Legion, both went way beyond training wheels. They resulted in flat tires, broken chains, and followers WALKING in lock step behind Maciel.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-28796435501128077432014-03-22T09:25:44.629-06:002014-03-22T09:25:44.629-06:00Jim I think you are right on about the priests in ...Jim I think you are right on about the priests in this diocese. Cardinal Law wound up in Rome because enough Boston priests collectively agitated for his removal. Look at Austria, their priest's initiative has not been effectively shut down because there are too many of them.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-50567871433623667762014-03-22T09:15:08.832-06:002014-03-22T09:15:08.832-06:00I'd also consider places that are not Catholic...I'd also consider places that are not Catholic. There is a plethora of opportunities to enrich the spirit. God is everywhere and I don't think God wants to abandon us -- we just need to look around a little more.Mary Heinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-71883313460160408392014-03-22T08:05:24.617-06:002014-03-22T08:05:24.617-06:00Well, I suppose it depends how close the next near...Well, I suppose it depends how close the next nearest parishes are. I don't suppose there's anything preventing them from going to another Mass. Many people do this already out of love for the Old Rite, or out of special connection to a particular priest or locality.Invictus_88http://fora.tv/myfora/9668/Invictus_88noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-13285171574698843112014-03-22T08:03:34.918-06:002014-03-22T08:03:34.918-06:00I can't really relate to this, and I do not be...I can't really relate to this, and I do not believe that military or seminary training is rooted in fear. This is not my experience.Invictus_88http://fora.tv/myfora/9668/Invictus_88noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-50532689655808167762014-03-22T08:02:20.473-06:002014-03-22T08:02:20.473-06:00You're not clear on precisely what it is you t...You're not clear on precisely what it is you think victims of abuse, people with same-sex attractions, and confident women leaders should do. <br />Surely they should be encouraged to discover God's love for them, the gifts He has provided for them through His Church, and to prayerfully and faithfully live the vocation they have been called to? <br />Or, had you another suggestion?Invictus_88http://fora.tv/myfora/9668/Invictus_88noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-67129335889295540012014-03-22T07:59:22.621-06:002014-03-22T07:59:22.621-06:00...because that is precisely what sheep and lambs ......because that is precisely what sheep and lambs of a flock are encouraged by a shepherd to do? To throw off discipline and get into trouble?<br /><br />This is not, and has not been, a part of the teaching of the Church.<br /><br />Is the Sacrament of Reconciliation a restrictive 'training wheel'? Is weekly Mass attendance? Is rejection of contraception and abortion? Is the Angelus? I struggle to see which "restrictions" you say ought to be thrown off.Invictus_88http://fora.tv/myfora/9668/Invictus_88noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-17661283655326934382014-03-21T16:13:16.945-06:002014-03-21T16:13:16.945-06:00Until and unless these parishioners refuse to nons...Until and unless these parishioners refuse to nonsense it will continue because the ONLY vote ... particulary in such a dysfunctional diocese ... they have is their checkbook. If bringing the parish to its knees is an outcome, then that might be a price to pay. Other parishes exist.<br />Until and unless the priests of this diocese refuse to tolerate Braxton and his bully-boy tactics, they will continue. He can't fire them all, and if he tries the resulting stink will force the Papal Nuncio and "The Vatican" to finally deal with Braxton. <br />Temporary inconvenience is better than permanent disempowerment.jimmccreanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-18673135834941435862014-03-21T13:07:30.623-06:002014-03-21T13:07:30.623-06:00The church, the people of God, is indeed led in tr...The church, the people of God, is indeed led in truth. But the church has allowed child abusers to continue their ways in every diocese. Let's repeat that, every diocese. Remember when Ratzinger said it was an American problem? The man who had all the data? The historian who knew the documents of the 5th and 11th centuries about this very problem? Is he lying to us out of love? <br /> Reasons given mostly concern scandal, obedience, and the shortage of priests. Most times no reasons are given. So your response is tangential. What does a person of faith and love do when the leaders act so unlovingly? Does love supercede obedience? Jesus, eating with unwashed hands, seems to think so. Those abused by the priests, gay people, women called to lead, and more have faced this dilemma. Those who have learned compassion feel it.Matt Connollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-61912494295538453442014-03-21T12:52:19.234-06:002014-03-21T12:52:19.234-06:00Agreed. I hope we all get there.Agreed. I hope we all get there.Matt Connollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-66361568246472404312014-03-21T12:37:06.468-06:002014-03-21T12:37:06.468-06:00The Church doesn't teach child abuse though (a...The Church doesn't teach child abuse though (as if I even need to state it!), so your argument against the truth of the Church is wrong.<br />We love one-another, and we love the Church, as we love God. Cut any one of those out, and problems arise.<br />We are called to fidelity and obedience just as we are called to love. They are connected.Invictus_88http://fora.tv/myfora/9668/Invictus_88noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-5128654319952769732014-03-21T12:29:59.461-06:002014-03-21T12:29:59.461-06:00Christ asked us to let go of our religious trainin...Christ asked us to let go of our religious training wheels and ride the bike of spiritual life, trusting in our own ability to balance. Scrapes, bumps, and bruises are part of the effort, but the hardest part is choosing to take off the training wheels. Invictus will get there...especially if he keeps hanging around here.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-62101862905226746012014-03-21T12:26:00.377-06:002014-03-21T12:26:00.377-06:00I certainly have no problem with engaging the enth...I certainly have no problem with engaging the enthusiasm of youth. I suspect you and I would have a problem with what constitutes 'sound catechesis' because a 'healthy Catholic culture' can not be fostered from a foundation of fear and unquestioned obedience to authority. <br /><br />Way back when I was asked to meditate on military training vs spiritual training. I came to the conclusion that the insistence on obedience to authority, fear, and camaraderie worked extremely well when the task was kill or be killed. When the task is to love and be loved, that military approach does not work well, and in fact is antithetical to the mission of love. When it comes to love, being open to others, compassion, non judgement, and a willingness to subsume the ego by serving others, are key attributes. I do not think the current seminary system, historically based on the military model, is helpful in engendering Pope Francis' desire to end clericalism. For me the core change must be in our conception of, and training for, our spiritual leadership. We need more mystics, not more ritually based priests......and that's where women and elders come into play.colkochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-45409256405168402792014-03-21T11:36:44.527-06:002014-03-21T11:36:44.527-06:00Invictus, back for more? We have locked horns bef...Invictus, back for more? We have locked horns before, and I see that others are trying to engage you once again.<br /><br />Your answers are always the same, the orthodox view of life. You have decided that the church is right, and adherence to the church is always correct, even when it doesn't seem so. That puts you in with Augustine, and may I say that you are in intelligent and faithful company.<br /><br />That view doesn't work when your sexual abuser is held in place to abuse again. It doesn't work when multiple lies are exposed and you find that the abuse goes on in every diocese in the world and through time, and the statistics are always underplayed until secular (!) authority reveals true numbers. It doesn't work when Christian people are told they aren't really in a church unless it is ours. It doesn't work when all gay people are disordered unless they close their senses and live in denial. It doesn't work when women are only held in esteem when they shut up and sit down.<br /><br />Christ was asked to break it down to the bottom line. He demanded that we love God, each other, and ourselves. I've learned to look for that. I have stopped being shocked when "good Christian people" can't recognize when someone around them is loving. It's fear that gets in the way, a learned response of "holy fear" taught and nurtured by those who want control. It is evil, the devil if you wish.<br /><br />You won't change until you give God Her due, when you place love higher than rectitude. And I'll bet you many here will be able to see it.Matt Connollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-13127610340568327772014-03-21T10:45:23.933-06:002014-03-21T10:45:23.933-06:00He certainly does want the message to pass on thro...He certainly does want the message to pass on through all levels of the Church, as should we all!<br /><br />The question, really, is about how do we best implement renewal in the Church. Your prescription of passing more directing power to the laity at a local level is a common one, and would resolve some problems, but I don't think an enduring solution lies in that sort of quick fix. Though I agree that any lasting solution must be active at a 'grass roots' level, rather than by top-down command.<br /><br />There are promising signs in the UK that improved Church youth activities and university groups have helped to give young people the encouragement and the prayer life not only to discern possible vocation to the priesthood and religious orders, but to pursue them maturely in an atmosphere of charity and purpose, well-supported by sound catechesis.<br /><br />It is possible that such a broad-base fostering of healthy Catholic culture for the younger generations could also take root in the US.Invictus_88http://fora.tv/myfora/9668/Invictus_88noreply@blogger.com