tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post7938306213633587265..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Pope Benedict's Encyclical "Caritas in veritate" --Truly Global In His Thinkingcolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-87423271018586869252009-07-10T12:40:30.014-06:002009-07-10T12:40:30.014-06:00That's the real problem. Orthodox do not see p...<i>That's the real problem. Orthodox do not see priests as "set apart"</i><br /><br />If the priest has a wife and kids, he will be "set apart" from the community in ways that are not beneficial to the community. When a priest does not have a wife and a family, his parishioners are his family. At least they are for the priests who take their jobs seriously - hence, my statements about reforming the seminaries. <br /><br /><i><br />In the West, monks and priests got conflated...it's led to very <b>peculiar views about priesthood, views which can be rather bizarre.</b></i><br /><br />Name one.Inland Imperialisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10184088290537021163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-90390828923360793782009-07-09T18:29:55.850-06:002009-07-09T18:29:55.850-06:00"Interesting point. But given the exploding A..."Interesting point. But given the exploding AIDS crisis in Africa, I have doubts that the problem is their cultural need for generational continuity, but rather their lack of self-control.' <br /><br />This is an interesting comment, one that has to be laughed out of court. I doubt Africans have any less self-control than any other people.<br /><br /> The Orthodox church has married priests for a very simple reason: it's a very "normal thing" and it truly represents the community. The priest is really part of the community, is one of the community. He's not a monk who has chosen to be separate, in a certain way, from the community and that apartness is exemplified through celibacy.<br /><br />That's the real problem. Orthodox do not see priests as "set apart" from the community, except when being priests performing the Liturgy and they then represent the community, assisted by a deacon who truly is one of the community. Otherwise, they are just the same as everyone else.<br /><br />In the West, monks and priests got conflated...it's led to very peculiar views about priesthood, views which can be rather bizarre.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-76236051471730704792009-07-08T22:14:48.068-06:002009-07-08T22:14:48.068-06:00Another way to look at that, is that Fr Cutie is t...Another way to look at that, is that Fr Cutie is the first in a wave of priests that will eventually choose to leave the church. Now that they know they have a new home waiting for them, I believe the choice will be a lot easier and will be more frequent.<br /><br />I suspect that celibacy alone will not be the primary issue in the priest exodus. I believe it will be the incompetent leadership of the USCCB that will cause that flood gate to open.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-46043790359873151342009-07-08T15:04:33.127-06:002009-07-08T15:04:33.127-06:00In Fr. Cutie's example here,
Father Cutie ch...<i>In Fr. Cutie's example here, </i><br /><br />Father Cutie changed religions because he fell in love with a woman. That is astonishing. With a faith like his, it is probably good for the Church that he left - a victory for the current celibacy policy.Inland Imperialisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10184088290537021163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-67736768307984003082009-07-08T14:57:16.601-06:002009-07-08T14:57:16.601-06:00Jesus and St Paul spoke very little about the marr...<i><br />Jesus and St Paul spoke very little about the married state, except as adultery pertained. Perhaps they realized that their own experience limited them to observations about the obvious effects of adultery on the family and society.<br /></i><br /><br />Are you saying Jesus failed to teach us necessary truths because of his lack of experience as a married man? Was he not God? Do you think one has to be nuts to be a good psychologist? <br /><br /><i><br />The priesthood is running smack into issues of counter witness in African and South American cultures. In these cultures in which generational continuity is highly prized, the celibate priesthood makes no sense for the exact same reasons the sexual morality teachings stressing pro creation do make sense. </i><br /><br />Interesting point. But given the exploding AIDS crisis in Africa, I have doubts that the problem is their cultural need for generational continuity, but rather their lack of self-control. Married or not married, self control is an essential part of living a holy life, and priestly celibacy can be a valuable counter-cultural teaching tool. Whatever the best policy is, the first step must be cleaning up the lax/unorthodox seminaries. If that doesn't make a difference then (though I believe it will), and only then, they should consider changing the celibacy rule.Inland Imperialisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10184088290537021163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-53626293916462383442009-07-08T14:33:13.259-06:002009-07-08T14:33:13.259-06:00There are a number of reasons to do away with forc...There are a number of reasons to do away with forced celibacy and the main one is that they should not be forced.<br /><br />"Agreed. That is why the Church does not force anyone to be a priest."<br /><br />Agreed, the Church does not force anyone to be a priest. However, there are many priest who years after becoming a priest find someone that they would like to marry, such as Fr. Cutie, and many others who did not receive press coverage that we don't hear about. <br /><br />In Fr. Cutie's example here, he is forced out of the Church because he fell in love with someone over twenty years after entering a seminary. People obviously do change over time and their relationship with God changes & deepens by grace and wisdom, as well their understanding of themselves changes & deepens in time and maturity.<br /><br />The Church does not gain anything by forcing celibacy on all its priests forever and ever. I can't imagine Jesus ever saying to someone who served Him not to marry someone they met and fell in love with and wanted to have a family with and to tell him that he can no longer serve Him. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />In a time of priest shortages, don't you think it would be wise for the Church to change its policy?butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-48248180395965647892009-07-08T13:45:40.733-06:002009-07-08T13:45:40.733-06:00Jesus and St Paul spoke very little about the marr...Jesus and St Paul spoke very little about the married state, except as adultery pertained. Perhaps they realized that their own experience limited them to observations about the obvious effects of adultery on the family and society.<br /><br />Neither of them felt celibacy was a necessary component for an Apostle or a celebratory leader. In fact Paul thought in some cases it was a good thing, if one wasn't capable of practicing self discipline.<br /><br /><br />The priesthood is running smack into issues of counter witness in African and South American cultures. In these cultures in which generational continuity is highly prized, the celibate priesthood makes no sense for the exact same reasons the sexual morality teachings stressing pro creation do make sense. <br /><br />I suspect this is the reason the Vatican pays little heed to calls for a married clergy in the West but pays very careful attention to this issue in the South. The West has a culture of dedicated virgins and male celibates that goes way back before these were adopted by Catholicism. Many South American and African cultures do not and leadership is considered to be learned and practiced first in one's family. Or as Paul taught, if you can't lead your family you can't lead a church.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-3804071001114852152009-07-08T10:59:13.475-06:002009-07-08T10:59:13.475-06:00Considering that Orthodox have a married priesthoo...<i>Considering that Orthodox have a married priesthood and only require that bishops and monks be celibate, the argument that celibacy makes a more effective priesthood is rather thin.</i><br /><br />I don't understand the argument here. Why is the existence of married Orthodox priests an argument against celibate priests?Inland Imperialisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10184088290537021163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-3902772491850687332009-07-08T10:50:10.087-06:002009-07-08T10:50:10.087-06:00the problem I have with this is that not having an...<i> the problem I have with this is that not having any children makes it too easy to devalue children,</i><br /><br />What can I say, I know priests who seem to value children and have excellent understanding of how much time and work children require. I don't know how they developed such skills, but I know such priests exist. <br /><br /><i><br />The clerical system is a counter witness to Benedict's concepts of family values.</i><br /><br />Do you think Jesus' and St Paul's lives as celibates makes them counter witnesses to Benedict's concept of family values?<br /><br /><br /><i>One of the points Benedict makes about marriage is that it serves to keep people from <b>selfish isolation, or obssession with self</b>. A lot of priests have those issues too.</i><br /><br />Are you saying married people don't have those issues too? Or that marriage cures people's obsession with themselves? Do you deny those very issues are the cause of the sky-high divorce rate? <br /><br />The long, successful, history of the Church indicates to me that the solution is better seminary training.Inland Imperialisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10184088290537021163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-42821569975517003962009-07-08T07:05:36.946-06:002009-07-08T07:05:36.946-06:00Considering that Orthodox have a married priesthoo...Considering that Orthodox have a married priesthood and only require that bishops and monks be celibate, the argument that celibacy makes a more effective priesthood is rather thin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-56587909890540686332009-07-07T19:40:02.348-06:002009-07-07T19:40:02.348-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-35414275677532853242009-07-07T19:19:00.210-06:002009-07-07T19:19:00.210-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-62002009356894515562009-07-07T19:18:58.681-06:002009-07-07T19:18:58.681-06:00Stephen, the problem I have with this is that not ...Stephen, the problem I have with this is that not having any children makes it too easy to devalue children, or have a legitimate understanding in a REAL way as to the exact amount and kind of time children require.<br /><br />It's not just the day to day survival tasks, it's the emotional investment. I really believe in taking care of children one learns a great deal about taking care of other people. Plus there is the whole generational thing in which as one ages one appreciates they will not be alone. The investment comes full circle.<br /><br />The clerical system is a counter witness to Benedict's concepts of family values. While I don't believe everyone is suited for parenthood, I do believe a lot of priests are called to both family and sacramental life. Even Paul, who you quote, recognized that, if grudgingly.<br /><br />One of the points Benedict makes about marriage is that it serves to keep people from selfish isolation, or obssession with self. A lot of priests have those issues too.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-38694113466222320142009-07-07T16:41:07.851-06:002009-07-07T16:41:07.851-06:00Who says that a celibate priesthood "more eff...<i>Who says that a celibate priesthood "more effectively serve those who are in a married state?" A celibate priest says so?</i><br /><br />Correct. Saint Paul says so.<br /><br />"But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided." 1 Corinthians 7:32-34<br /><br />This is nothing more than common sense. A man who is not dedicated to a family has much more flexibility in how he can serve others. <br /><br /><i>There are a number of reasons to do away with forced celibacy and the main one is that they should not be forced.</i><br /><br />Agreed. That is why the Church does not force anyone to be a priest.Inland Imperialisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10184088290537021163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-87828181872982688552009-07-07T15:41:52.099-06:002009-07-07T15:41:52.099-06:00Who says that a celibate priesthood "more eff...Who says that a celibate priesthood "more effectively serve those who are in a married state?" A celibate priest says so? <br /><br />There are a number of reasons to do away with forced celibacy and the main one is that they should not be forced.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-16379897090947330532009-07-07T14:36:10.768-06:002009-07-07T14:36:10.768-06:00However, what also struck me about this paragraph ...<i>However, what also struck me about this paragraph is that the celibate male clerical system Benedict leads is by it's very nature a counter witness to what he writes here.</i><br /><br />The above statement would only be correct if the Church called all people to be celibate - of course it does not. A celibate priesthood, as the Church and St. Paul argue (1 Cor 7-9), more effectively serve those who are in a married state - thus promoting a culture of life. It's kind of like how those soldiers who give up their lives in wars so that others may be free. Or for that matter, it is like how Christ gave up his life so we may live.Inland Imperialisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10184088290537021163noreply@blogger.com