tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post8255565710331206556..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Plugging Holes In A Potential Volcanoecolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-76224600720233163662009-04-03T20:10:00.000-06:002009-04-03T20:10:00.000-06:00Sorry guys, I missed these comments. I sometimes t...Sorry guys, I missed these comments. I sometimes think I need to edit commets before they can be posted, but I know how that will kill the conversation. So I don't, but it then means I miss some comments.<BR/><BR/>Annonymous from Canada, I actually thing Jesus showed us a lot about overcoming death in his life, not his Resurrection. He was able to create from seeminly nothing. I think this was a huge message to the males of his time that creation is not just a biological function, but a product of the capacity to love, and through that love connect to the Father.<BR/><BR/>I don't know why we haven't gotten this message. Women seem to get it better than men, but that may be a result of pregnancy in which we women have very little control and it's really all about process.<BR/><BR/>Ultimately Jesus overcame death by His life, not His crucifixion. I may be a heretic here, but I don't think if He hadn't learned a whole lot about love in His life He wouldn't have overcome His death. In my opinion, it's sad in the extreme that none of us who call ourselves Christian and supposedly follow Him as the way, truth and life, have not found the same life over death. Most of our dogma and doctrine reinforces death over life.<BR/><BR/>Carl, you and I are both in the position where we should be getting beyond the need to trust in the Hierarcy and trust in our own knowledge of our experienced truth. I keep writing this blog not because I want to dis the hierarchy, but because I have this secret hope that I am addressing their lack of Faith.<BR/><BR/>I once wrote a long time ago that I had this continuous disagreement with a very psychically gifted priest who truly did not believe that Jesus was present in the Eucharist or at the Consecration. I told him it was his issue and that he just couldn't let himself believe in that particular MAGIC.<BR/><BR/>I used that term because I thought the consecration was magical in a very incredible way. Anyway my priest buddy said it was symbolic only, that there was no physical way Jesus could be present in the Eucharist.<BR/><BR/>When he dies, my friend who talks to dead people, who had no idea of mine and his on going debate, told me that he had come to her and told her to tell me the "magic was real". <BR/><BR/>I have a very good idea about how that "magic" could be real, and it doesn't involve repeating magic words. It's about community intent.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-28804204719990210552009-04-02T08:04:00.000-06:002009-04-02T08:04:00.000-06:00Phillip:When you said:"I think it's very dangerous...Phillip:<BR/><BR/>When you said:<BR/><BR/>"I think it's very dangerous that just because certain Magesterial teachings of the Church are less than credible, that as a consequence the entire Christian faith is watered down and thrown out" <BR/><BR/>it hit the heart of the issues I am having now. I agree with what you say, agree that there is much about catholicism that is rich and valuable. There is also much about it that as far as I’m concerned, is blatant deception. For me, now, it is an issue of trust.<BR/><BR/>The leadership has betrayed that trust, not once, but multitudes of times. Subsequently, I don’t believe or trust anything any of them say anymore. Hence you will regularly see me write:<BR/><BR/>If the Magisterial Authority says it is right and good<BR/>--- it probably isnt<BR/>If the Magisterial Authority says it is bad and wrong<BR/>--- it probably isnt<BR/>The one thing we can count on from the Magisterial Authority<BR/>--- is to be wrong.<BR/><BR/>The condom statement the pope recently made illustrates the issue perfectly. Everyone knows that condoms reduce/prevent the spread of STD's. With all the evidence to support that, what type of mind makes a statement that condoms are responsible for the spread of AIDS? What type of mind agrees with this kind of statement? Answer: one that is not functioning properly. What type of mind ignores truth? What type of minds are leading the catholic church?<BR/><BR/>The only answer I have, is ones that cannot be trusted.<BR/><BR/>I’m not willing to trust my salvation to someone who cannot be trusted.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-73280437139263188512009-04-01T21:05:00.000-06:002009-04-01T21:05:00.000-06:00The problem with atonement theology only comes if ...The problem with atonement theology only comes if it is seen strictly in itself and as the only possible theological "explanation" for the Death and Resurrection of Christ.<BR/>Eastern Orthodox theology does not focus on the atonement alone but places it in a larger context as one element of a more dynamic view.<BR/>The fall of humanity or the "primordial sin" has more to do with the introduction of mortality, ( seen as a kind of impermanence or inability to remain stable), as an "unnatural" element in human life.<BR/>The Incarnation of Christ removes this impermanence but only through Christ dying and conquering Death, ( "it is not seemly for the Author of Life to be subject to Death").<BR/>Christ conquers death by death, trampling down death by death and bestowing life to those in the tomb.<BR/>This view is an older one than the Anselmian "satisfaction" theology which, when removed from this type of context, leads to extreme nonsense such as that enunciated by the bishop.<BR/>The bishop, by merely repeating without any reflection, the tropes of the catechism, did a bad job of responding to Mr. Moorwood's passionate questioning.<BR/>Mr. Moorwood brings up some deeply troubling questions that need some real answers.<BR/>I agree somewhat with his questions but wish to point out that he repeats, or can be seen to repeat, the problematic views found in early Christianity, more exactly, the views of Marcion who argued that the O.T. God was not the God of Christ. Such views led early Christian theologians to view the O.T. as a necessary foundation of Christianity since the O.T. only makes sense, from a Christian view, as being fulfilled by the Incarnation of Christ and his victory over death.<BR/>We need to look again at all this and renew the language so that such a split view of God does not become the norm.<BR/>It's really needed.<BR/>I went to a bookstore today in Montreal, once a bastion of staunch Catholicism, and found more books for sale dedicated to Buddhism than to Christianity.<BR/>Obviously, the language of Christianity is not being understood.<BR/>It shouldn't take years of theological study to comprehend what should be available to all regardless of educational level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-19852502828305599402009-04-01T06:08:00.000-06:002009-04-01T06:08:00.000-06:00Phillip, you make good points, and I have one poin...Phillip, you make good points, and I have one point I want to make in rebuttal.<BR/><BR/>Our sexual theology is a product of atonement theology, of the idea that man is fallen from grace and sinful.<BR/><BR/>For me, there are four huge events in the Gospels,Jesus's baptism, the Tranfiguration, the Resurrection, and Pentecost, which point to the Divine nature of Jesus and His teachings. <BR/><BR/>It's hard for me to look at Jesus's life and believe His Father is a vindictative jerk who needed His Son to die in order to redeem His own creation. I think Jesus Himself chose to come amongst us because His heart was broken by how clueless we are about our true natures and He wanted to experience why we were so clueless. He found out in spades, but also showed us a whole lot more about what we could be and do if we followed His teachings and learned to love.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-37920064362494382082009-03-31T21:59:00.000-06:002009-03-31T21:59:00.000-06:00While I agree with the general premise and motivat...While I agree with the general premise and motivation behind this article, I don't think that scrapping "traiditional atonement theology" is part of the solution...<BR/><BR/>Yes, the Church definitely needs to address many issues that fly in the face of modern-day scientific undrestanding. Particularly those pertaining to human sexuality. <BR/><BR/>However, I don't think rejecting atonement theology is a method that would bring individuals signifigantly closer to God. In fact, I think it might lead us closer to atheism, I may sound fundamentalist, but I just feel that when we begin to erode certain facets of the Faith everything falls apart. The desire to want to eradicate the Incarnation and the Paschal Mystery is an especially dangersous and threatening trend I've come across within progressive Catholic circles.<BR/><BR/>What is the Incarnation, Death, and Reurrection of Jesus Christ without its redemptive quality? The sacrificial nature of the Paschal Mystery isn't just an invention of the Middle Ages (like certain theologies regarding sexuality, and other matters pertaining to life are). The fact that Jesus was the ultimate, reconciliation of humanity to God is present throughout all the Gospels and all of the New Testament Epistles, particularly St. Paul's. <BR/><BR/>I think it's very dangerous that just because certain Magesterial teachings of the Church are less than credible, that as a consequence the entire Christian faith is watered down and thrown out witht the bath water. Vatican II certainly did call for genuine REFORM, but not for this...<BR/><BR/>What is Christianity with the Virgin birth, the Incarnation, the Death and Resurrection of Christ? Yes, there are many things throughout Scripture that, clearly, don't have to be taken literally in all circumstances. The Bible is a book of God's love for us, but everyone acknowledges that the climax and essential purpose of it is JESUS CHRIST. He is the source, summit, and impetus of our Faith. All of Scripture is essentially meant to point toward Him. He is all that matters. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps some external practices within the Church have managed to portray God as being "far off" and not close to us. But isn't that why Jesus came to earth? As the God-Man to be "God WITH us?" Jesus Christ will be ever with us for the very fact that He assumed human flesh and raised the dignity of a fallen humanity so that we might have the hope of spending eternity with Him!<BR/><BR/>Maybe it's just me, but the Incarnation and the Paschal Mystery to me are the crux of the Christian Faith and are not something that can be negotiated with or explained away. What is faith really if we don't have the ability to place our own interpretations of reality in the hands of Someone who is infinitely greater than we are?Phillip Clarknoreply@blogger.com