tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post880307694321978307..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Reasoning Out Why Religious Fundamentalists Are Unreasonablecolkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-81478387437203938552010-07-04T19:43:25.283-06:002010-07-04T19:43:25.283-06:00If the Church really had a consistent belief about...<i>If the Church really had a consistent belief about full human life being present at conception they would instruct every sexually active woman to baptize every single monthly menstrual flow if only because a baby may be in that menstrual flow.</i><br /><br />Weird, but true. Of course, such an instruction would only be possible if the magisterium actually adverted to the findings of scientific research. But if they did that -- which would mean acknowledging that somewhere between 70-80% of all embryos fail to implant in the uterus -- they would have to teach very differently about abortion.<br /><br />Given their present attitude toward abortion, I can't see them doing anything as sane as actually taking science into account, at least not anytime time soon.PrickliestPearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07606660660913560540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-50714616682928887702010-07-04T09:04:46.068-06:002010-07-04T09:04:46.068-06:00Mareczku I agree that abortion and same sex marria...Mareczku I agree that abortion and same sex marriage should not be linked, but I'm not the one who is making the linkage. The Church hierarchy has decided these two issues are the moral topic of the day. The linkage is the body of sexual morality espoused by the Church. If I had to prioritize the morality it would be something like the object of sex is conception and the only moral use of sexual appendages is men are to deposit sperm in female uterus and let the pregnancy process prevail. Everything else is secondary and that which is actively outside these perameters is evil.<br /><br />To buy this whole thing one has to believe that human life is primarily a biological entity whose expression is defined by 'natural' law. This is why pro lifers are now saying any question of ensoulment is a red herring argument in abortion.<br /><br />I take a different starting point and feel that we are really eternal spiritual beings having a human experience. Human consciousness is a product of the quantum reality which is constrained in it's biological expression by the limits of the material universe. Jesus came to show us how to move beyond those limits. <br /><br />We are all connected at the deepest levels and understand on some level the importance of that connection. Every aborted embyro or conceptus that does not implant or fetus that miscarries or child who is still born is an equal part of that deeper meaning. It is humanity in it's material expression who needs to make distinctions. That is an ego fantasy.<br /><br />If the Church really had a consistent belief about full human life being present at conception they would instruct every sexually active woman to baptize every single monthly menstrual flow if only because a baby may be in that menstrual flow. Since they don't--yet anyway--I can't help but wonder if the abortion crusade, like the gay marriage crusade, is really about controlling gender expression,and that in the final analysis is all about who has the right to determine cultural norms.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-81946091626408951622010-07-03T20:24:02.261-06:002010-07-03T20:24:02.261-06:00I'm not justifying abortion, but I am saying t...I'm not justifying abortion, but I am saying that it is my belief that the child forgives. That is my belief, given that abortions occur, lives are taken, and the soul goes directly to God. <br /><br />Why wouldn't a pure soul be Christlike and forgive? Just as Jesus did on the cross? So I'm just saying I see that unborn, aborted child as a martyr - who forgives. (it's just my personal view - but again, not an argument for abortion, any more than Jesus forgiving is an argument for crucifixion)TheraPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684120043427738135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-69625545429329485982010-07-03T19:50:39.228-06:002010-07-03T19:50:39.228-06:00I don't understand the concept that in an abor...I don't understand the concept that in an abortion the child is giving himself up to God. The child isn't doing this. The mother is the one sacrificing the child. She is giving her child a push into the hearafter so to speak. I don't see the Church ever really approving of abortion. When it comes down to it, abortion is killing someone, an unwanted and unloved someone, but someone all the same. If the Church did approve of abortion, it would lose all credibility. The case in Phoenix is an extreme case in which the child was doomed either way. It was a choice between saving one person or none. I don't see why people join the abortion (in favor of abortions) and homosexuality issues. I think unborn children are equal in their humanity and dignity to other people and I think that gay people are also equal in their humanity to others also.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-6178424373589129592010-07-03T11:55:35.392-06:002010-07-03T11:55:35.392-06:00TheraP your idea about abortion and the sacrifice ...TheraP your idea about abortion and the sacrifice of the child can actually be taken one step further. It's not just an offering of a live to God, it's also the presenting of an oppurtunity for that 'shaking up' of the ego for the parents.<br /><br />I've heard this time and time again from parents who have special needs children. They learn to accept and love the child because of the lessons they must learn in caring for the child. What they secretly resent at first matures into a gift they can't imagine not having experienced. That's God and/or the divine spark of the soul at work on the fantasies of the ego construct.<br /><br />Life can be so multifaceted if you just let it be instead of desperately trying to control it.<br /><br />Here's another really short liner. The soul sees life as a verb, where as the ego needs life to be a noun.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-37801102503435983562010-07-03T11:46:40.196-06:002010-07-03T11:46:40.196-06:00For some reason Blogger has been doing that recent...For some reason Blogger has been doing that recently. Saying a comment is too long to post and then posting it anyway which leads to double posting. It only seems to happen with the really good comments. :)<br /><br />mjc, I burst out laughing with the Catholic cancers comment. I can so hear how that is entirely possible. And now I will mentally hear that everytime I see or write something about Catholic Answers.<br />I really truly believe that kind of punny humor is the part of our identity we call the soul breaking in with a message.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-25568031683814545802010-07-03T11:29:40.527-06:002010-07-03T11:29:40.527-06:00Strange.... it posted, even though I was told the ...Strange.... it posted, even though I was told the comment was too large. Then..... I was told there was problem.... huh, no kidding! Oh, well...TheraPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684120043427738135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-23127271689385136972010-07-03T11:28:20.957-06:002010-07-03T11:28:20.957-06:00Vanished into the ether.... (sob)Vanished into the ether.... (sob)TheraPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684120043427738135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-70339686919053212522010-07-03T11:22:39.473-06:002010-07-03T11:22:39.473-06:00Recently, Colleen, you wrote about the value of ha...Recently, Colleen, you wrote about the value of having your entire belief system shaken to its core, having your whole outlook turned inside and out and upside down, what I'd call the shaking of the Ego. And if we respond to that experience by allowing the transcendent to overpower us, so that we are transformed forever after, we come to view life, events, other people, very differently. It takes tremendous courage and a sense of adventure to be shaken to our core, so that the CORE is no longer "us" but God in us. <br /><br />I am now convinced there is no way to have a rational discussion with this pope. Or with his minions. All we do is keep up the barrage of calm, relentless critiques - without expecting an outcome which we desire. So to let go of our expectations. But continue to focus on what really matters. And it's not "doctrine" - I'm sure. It is the Presence of Holy Mystery indwelling persons who allow themselves to be transformed, who never take credit for that, who humbly accept that they are not in control of events, who do their small part - without expecting a reward.<br /><br />(continued below)TheraPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684120043427738135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-54434744446314452752010-07-03T11:21:20.718-06:002010-07-03T11:21:20.718-06:00Recently, Colleen, you wrote about the value of ha...Recently, Colleen, you wrote about the value of having your entire belief system shaken to its core, having your whole outlook turned inside and out and upside down, what I'd call the shaking of the Ego. And if we respond to that experience by allowing the transcendent to overpower us, so that we are transformed forever after, we come to view life, events, other people, very differently. It takes tremendous courage and a sense of adventure to be shaken to our core, so that the CORE is no longer "us" but God in us. <br /><br />I am now convinced there is no way to have a rational discussion with this pope. Or with his minions. All we do is keep up the barrage of calm, relentless critiques - without expecting an outcome which we desire. So to let go of our expectations. But continue to focus on what really matters. And it's not "doctrine" - I'm sure. It is the Presence of Holy Mystery indwelling persons who allow themselves to be transformed, who never take credit for that, who humbly accept that they are not in control of events, who do their small part - without expecting a reward.<br /><br />I'm at the point, actually, where I believe that in the case of abortion that child "gives" himself or herself to God - forgiving the parent who undergoes an abortion, understanding the anguish of the person who, in the grip of emotions (whatever they are) feels trapped and unable to carry the child to term PLUS raise the child in ways they would want to. <br /><br />It's the transformation in thinking that is needed here. Life - we cling to it - but it is just one phase. It is not a bad thing to die. In the end we lose everything material that we have collected. We all must die. How we face that, how we accept that and transcend that, I think, is so crucial to life. <br /><br />So it's not dogmas, but existentially facing life and death - so that we lose our ego as "center" and care about all others and all of life - that Jesus teaches.TheraPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684120043427738135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-49696531601532497372010-07-03T10:40:15.826-06:002010-07-03T10:40:15.826-06:00Tremendous post, Colleen. There is so much to thi...Tremendous post, Colleen. There is so much to think about. As I've said before, it's this basis of fear that I think keeps us from loving, and I'm not sure how to bring that out to fear-based believers. I'm beginning to think that it needs to be an argument of the heart and not the head. As you wrote, compassion becomes sinful capitulation. That would explain the hard heartedness of so many who profess faith, mostly a fear of growth and a fear that all our blessings will dry up and be taken from us. I see it in the magic of threes and sevens and tens in prayer, in the redefinition of love as correction by the EWTN crowd. Each time a new article comes out detailing some new way the hierarchy doesn't embody Christ, the cry goes up to kill the messenger and "that's terrible journalism anyway".<br /><br />A small and catty digression -- you've got me listening to Catholic Answers on the radio as I drive in the car now. I've learned a lot. I agree with about 2/3 of what is said, but each and every hour I hear that I must discriminate good Catholics from bad Catholics. Then I'm assured that the good guys are winning (and gaining steam). Anyway, when the "expert" says "Catholic Answers" it really sounds like "Catholic Cancers." Makes me chuckle.<br /><br />Keep doing what you are doing. You lead a discussion that really helps crystallize my faith. I take this to the real world, and these prayers help me to love and lead me to serve. Thanks.<br /><br />PS word is menchlor, which means nothing.mjcnoreply@blogger.com