tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post9200011192522362824..comments2023-08-21T03:51:17.425-06:00Comments on Enlightened Catholicism: Integrity Or Obedience?colkochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-86424847952153194002010-10-06T05:48:40.131-06:002010-10-06T05:48:40.131-06:00Your options were really a head thinker that you&#...Your options were really a head thinker that you'll stop for a while and really think if what's fits or right for your wants.brisbane churchhttp://www.brisbanehousechurches.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-4440877022070239902010-02-15T09:44:45.715-07:002010-02-15T09:44:45.715-07:00Sandy, it's funny you commented on this articl...Sandy, it's funny you commented on this article--especially today--at least for me.<br /><br />Claiming our power is all about recognizing we have it. I just finished reading a blog post on the National Catholic Reporter from Amy Manson and was really struck by some of the comments. People would talk about feeling a call to a vocation and be furious that the hierarchy won't let them pursuit it. <br /><br />The truth is they won't act on their vocation from God unless the Vatican gives them permission. If it's a vocation from God why do they need the Vatican's permission?<br /><br />This is exemplified by Fr. Kennedy's congregation which left official Catholicism and is thriving on it's own. They just "did it". They took the message that if their parish was of God that was all the permission they needed. Apparently when it comes to vocations the Vatican has more authority than God for way too many devout and Christ like people. <br /><br />The Vatican is fully committed to blinding people to their own empowerment. That's how they've survived for two millenia--by substituting pwereless obedience for empowered integrity.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-19053783936324411982010-02-14T08:04:03.105-07:002010-02-14T08:04:03.105-07:00Thank you for expressing concepts that many of us ...Thank you for expressing concepts that many of us are struggling with. Does anyone know what has been happening to Fr Kennedy's congregation? It is so frustrating when we are made powerless because we refuse to obey, but choose to live our truth. How do we reclaim that power?Sandy's school of good intentionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12688136547393784725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-43408875756173622212009-01-12T12:51:00.000-07:002009-01-12T12:51:00.000-07:00"Obedience????. . . For me it sounds like a power ..."Obedience????. . . For me it sounds like a power hierarchy that wishes to keeps its underlings at the more primitive levels of consciousness, unindividuated, dependent, and "in the dark". . .Rarely do we find the command of obedience except in power's hierarchy language. . .<BR/><BR/>Whereas integrity?. . .Integrity is the word i use when making reference to the most sacred governing of my inwardness. . ."<BR/><BR/>I agree totally with this River. Integrity IS all about the sacred governing of one's inwardness. Violating one's integrity is like throwing mud on one's candle. Enough mud, and you can no longer even find the candle much less light it.<BR/><BR/>I remember the pop psychology days quite vividly. A psychologist down the interstate from here wrote one called: "I ain't much baby, but I'm all I've got." It was a best seller. It almost inspired me to write my best seller: I ain't got much to say, but it sure makes money."colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-10331936423363705722009-01-12T12:00:00.000-07:002009-01-12T12:00:00.000-07:00Colleen way back in the field of pop psychology th...Colleen way back in the field of pop psychology there was a phase when people talked of scripts; "Im Okay, Your Okay"?<BR/><BR/>For the conservative laity i have wondered if the script might be concerning the ones demanding Obedience and tradition; "I am your rescuer, you are my captives"?. . .and for the laity; "You are my rescuers, i am your captive"?. . .<BR/><BR/>( i am using the word laity to c those caught in fundamentalism )<BR/><BR/>Another thing as i was reading this; the mind went to the season.<BR/><BR/>The season of the Christian year with Advent, Christmas, and Epiphany expressed in liturgy. In Jungian material Jesus would be seen as the Hero. The Hero is identified as as light,the sun, and the "Light of the World" which is also the symbol of the psyche, where light is equal to consciousness. Darkness is equated with unconsciousness and with that ruled by instinctual and undiffereniated. . .<BR/><BR/>Thousands of years before Jesus birth, pre-christian celebrated the winter solstice. . . the beginning and return of the sun. The sun was more than a source of light and warmth but a symbol for the inner source of light within the psyche. . .<BR/><BR/>Obedience????. . . For me it sounds like a power hierarchy that wishes to keeps its underlings at the more primitive levels of consciousness, unindividuated, dependent, and "in the dark". . .Rarely do we find the command of obedience except in power's hierarchy language. . .<BR/><BR/>Whereas integrity?. . .Integrity is the word i use when making reference to the most sacred governing of my inwardness. . .<BR/><BR/>For unindividuated people's psyche it might of made sense for the Church to create a system of parent to child. . .because for the more unconscious the control of instinctual drive is more precarious and evolution of consciousness is a slow process. . .<BR/><BR/>Your writings with the birthday of Jesus and the celebration of the birthday of the Sun this year seems to hold great resonance . . .and what you are writing about these days seem to be a template for the pageantry of the birthing of the Hero at collective levels i believe. .<BR/><BR/> The Hero lives by the integrity within and the shaming and demanding of obedience seems to respond to Jesus traditionally being born the "midnight" of the year ( the point where is the greatest darkness and the most absence of light?)<BR/><BR/>Advent is the preparation of Christmas where we remember the world of darkness before the Christ (Hero)came. For the Christian, Israel remained in darkness, captive to the power of darkness, trapped in a fallen universe, enslaved by darkness of unconsciousness symbolically seen by some as the Dragon or Satan of the psyche. . . Synthesized to one sentence to two words; Power over.. .<BR/><BR/>That which is not submissive to that which is greater. <BR/><BR/>Advent prayer; <BR/><BR/>" O come, O come Emmanuel, <BR/>(God is with us, Consciousness)<BR/><BR/>and ransom captive Israel,<BR/>(the true Church based on what God has given to each as children of God, the Christ spark becoming ignited, the not i who lives but the Christ that lives within.)<BR/><BR/>That mourns in lonely exile here."<BR/><BR/>Just summoning up, the birth of Jesus , the birth of the sun, which occurs at winter solstice, there is a star constellation which rises in the East at the same time. The name of this constellation is Virgo, the virgin, and her image is a woman holding a shock of wheat. She is the mother of the sun-hero, which would be the Mother of Christ; Mary. . . .<BR/><BR/>Colleen just my two cents worth and how i see the thread that is running through your posts these days. . .I think that thread is leading to a really good place with more and more people reconnection and rebalancing the Divine feminine in the symbolic form of the Divine Mother. . .<BR/><BR/>my word is gotomat. . .???<BR/>go to mat which might mean go to mata where mata in the East means great soul. . .<BR/><BR/>So will close with may all go to their great soul and find freedom. . .sparrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09704407318593137610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-11379732086364960472009-01-12T07:27:00.000-07:002009-01-12T07:27:00.000-07:00Carl, it is sort of uncanny how the hierarchy is a...Carl, it is sort of uncanny how the hierarchy is aping the Jewish authority of Jesus's day. As butterfly writes below, it's endemic of an ego driven spirituality.<BR/><BR/>I don't mean ego in the selfish sense, I mean ego in the enculturated adaptive sense which needs other approval for any sense of self esteem and personal security. The unexamined or undeveloped self always puts obedience and loyalty above integrity and love.<BR/><BR/>The entire philisophical basis of the traditional family is obedience and loyalty to authority and that is not going to be productive any longer. That's why I think gay marriage and the feminist move towards female equality really are the threats to the Church the Vatican proclaims they are. <BR/><BR/>Any notions of social engagement based in equality rather than authority is threatening.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-73751053219691868442009-01-12T07:20:00.000-07:002009-01-12T07:20:00.000-07:00"Ego-identity centered religiosity can be equated ..."Ego-identity centered religiosity can be equated to a type of nationalism that does not see the interconnectedness of all under God. The obedience he speaks of is an obedience really to intellectual and spiritual dishonesty and sloth regarding the Truth which God reveals to those who love Him and seek Him. There is always someone else to blame which is another mark of spiritual laziness. He winds up promoting spiritual laziness in the guise of calling it "obedience."<BR/><BR/>This is very insightful Butterfly. If there were a ratings system it would most certainly get a four.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-1760617369626471412009-01-11T11:30:00.000-07:002009-01-11T11:30:00.000-07:00Fr. Neuhaus, God rest His soul, from the writing i...Fr. Neuhaus, God rest His soul, from the writing in the link seems to have great difficulty in perceiving, including and loving others, especially who he deems to be "enemies." It becomes obvious how he does this by his writing and descriptions of certain intellectual or spiritual leanings or elements within the Church. He bears the distinctive mark of someone who when he does not intellectually understand something makes it into an enemy to either be shunned, pushed away, discredited, etc. <BR/><BR/>The bottom line of his idea of a post-modern Catholic identity is to shun others, which is in direct contrast to Jesus' teachings. In his mind he tends to want to destroy that which is not consistent with his truth, a truth which is not a truth because it is untruth. <BR/><BR/>He seems unable or unwilling to acknowledge or justify the existence of signs and wonders of the Holy Spirit in the living scriptures and Psalms that unite us to Christ that would completely discredit him. As a matter of fact, there is no mention of the Holy Spirit or even a hint of it in his writing. He draws the mind to make conclusions that are founded from the premise of a traditional ego insisting on thriving, rather than the idea of selflessness and the care of Christ in that self that is Christ longing to live as Christ within us. In other words, his writing is not Christ-centered, but ego-filled. His view and perspective is a very worldly rendition of Church politics struggling though in its ego-identity and he sets out merely to destroy other egos which he does not find acceptable in his authoritative and exclusive public square. His is the view of ego vs. ego. There is no spiritual growth if one follows his line of thought. It can only lead to one place and that is a dead end of one man's opinion against anothers. This is certainly not how Christ taught, to pit one against another. Jesus is not about pitting men and women against one another.<BR/><BR/>Neuman's constant political posturing and labeling of others brings about this idea of a false-Catholicism of righteous egos which many of us progressives are very familiar with and we reject heartily as in direct opposition to the Holy Spirit and the integrity of that Holy Spirit within. These seeds of his own discontent to finding the Truth bring about the tearing apart of any living Truth that lives and breathes within the People of God. His unwillingness and own intellectual handicap is the idea that obedience to the Magisterium is the only answer to his own intellectual weakness which generates a real incapacity and almost obstinate refusal to love others. And he really can't find love or the way to loving his enemies by being ego-centered. The reason for this inability is his obedience to authority of men rather than the obedience first to God and by following the age old tradition of loving God with one's whole heart, mind, body and soul. He takes issues very similarly as his intellectual and spiritually handicapped peer Pope Benedict XVI who also seems stuck in the tradition of ego-identity. Ego-identity centered religiosity can be equated to a type of nationalism that does not see the interconnectedness of all under God. The obedience he speaks of is an obedience really to intellectual and spiritual dishonesty and sloth regarding the Truth which God reveals to those who love Him and seek Him. There is always someone else to blame which is another mark of spiritual laziness. He winds up promoting spiritual laziness in the guise of calling it "obedience." A mindset of blame is in actuality a seed of the devil who will look out for your flesh but not your soul's capacity to be truly incorporated into the living Christ.<BR/><BR/>In direct contrast to Fr. Neuman's writing in the link is a small book by Thomas Merton entitled Bread in the Wilderness. It was published in 1953. Merton's ability to write about what he has experienced spiritually and in concrete internalized ways is legendary. The ramblings on about Catholic identity by Fr. Neuhaus have only served to lead others away from the true guiding light of the living God and the Resurrected Jesus and that glorious Holy Spirit which is lost upon the obedience to ignorance and a life in darkness that Neuhaus seems now a legendary star.butterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684946870144030594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-71508084351957616002009-01-10T17:15:00.000-07:002009-01-10T17:15:00.000-07:00Holy Jesus, tonight is the fullest moon of the yea...Holy Jesus, tonight is the fullest moon of the year, no wonder I need to get wormed. :-pCOL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-91615266406613679002009-01-10T17:12:00.000-07:002009-01-10T17:12:00.000-07:00Well this one really opened up the worm can for me...Well this one really opened up the worm can for me. <BR/><BR/>Why do so many of the clergy compromise their core beliefs so as to carry on the good work they are doing within church structures? <BR/><BR/>One Possible Answer:<BR/><BR/>it will not be just the parish priest that is penalized, but it will be his congregants who will be suffering for his actions.<BR/><BR/>St Stanislaus parish in St Louis is a living and recent example of what can happen when a pastor/parish do not kneel and pay homage to a vindictive bishop. <BR/><BR/>The bishops have lied and continue to lie. That is well documented in the multimedia. It is a very short step from lying to blackmail and intimidation. We witnessed that step multiple times during the presidential election and the pedophile scandal. It is an even shorter step to bribery and extortion. <BR/><BR/>Why do so many priests compromise their integrity? Most likely they are staying quiet in order to protect their families (congregations) from retaliatory attacks by vindictive bishops.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-80616554788720834782009-01-10T13:09:00.000-07:002009-01-10T13:09:00.000-07:00This post and the last one helped me to realize th...This post and the last one helped me to realize that there are a few things that truly are impossible right now.<BR/><BR/>One is a true interfaith dialogue with the RCC. As long as the RCC Magisterial Authorities hold to the belief that THEY are the one true church, such a dialogue is impossible.<BR/><BR/>Another is peace in the middle east. As long as there are factions that have as their stated goal the total destruction of isreal, no matter what the cost, peace is impossible.<BR/><BR/>Another sadly, is honesty and integrity within the leadership of the catholic church.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8383701632927065467.post-18787523153229099012009-01-10T12:31:00.000-07:002009-01-10T12:31:00.000-07:00Excellent and timely post Colleen. In all of what...Excellent and timely post Colleen. In all of what you wrote, there is one comment that stands out above the rest for me:<BR/><BR/>"Jesus railed against the religious authority of his day, the people who liked to be in the important places, with status and power and all that"<BR/><BR/>The catholic church magisterial authority today is a contemporary replica of the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day. Replicating even the fancy clothes and superfluous rhetoric and arrogant attitudes that Jesus condemned.<BR/><BR/>When one studies the scripture regarding Christ's words and actions, there is only one condemnation that will be found, and this is of the hypocrisy of the Jewish clergy. I suspect, the same would be true today, only the target of Jesus' condemnation would be the RCC Magisterial Authorities.<BR/><BR/>The scriptures are so very clear about this point, the paralles are so very clear, and yet so many who are supposedly learned in the scriptures, truly are blind to their message. <BR/><BR/>Integrity, sadly is a concept that is alien to most, if not all of the RCC Magisterial Authority. All of those I know who have left the RCC state that it was the lack of integrity within the clergy that caused them to leave.COL55https://www.blogger.com/profile/07057765287988790129noreply@blogger.com