Thursday, September 9, 2010

A Clerical Call For More Catholic Babies To Save European Culture From Islamic Babies

Seriously, this is an actual game.  Doesn't appear to be one I personally would want to play.  I've done my diaper duty.

Catholic priest urges European Christians to fight off Islam by having babies
BY Meena Hartenstein  NY DAILY NEWS - Wednesday, September 8th 2010

A prominent Catholic priest wants European Christians to fight off Islam with a unique weapon: babies.

Father Piero Gheddo, an Italian missionary priest, said Wednesday he believes a declining birth rate among Europeans combined with a rising tide of Muslim immigrants could mean that Islam will soon dominate Europe.

"Certainly from a demographic point of view, as it is clear to everyone that Italians are decreasing by 120,000 or 130,000 persons a year because of abortion and broken families; while among the more than 200,000 legal immigrants a year in Italy, more than half are Muslims and Muslim families, which have a much higher level of growth," he said, according to Rome's Catholic news service Zenit News Agency.

Gheddo's solution? Christians need to start having more children. (Except for him and his fellow clergy.)

"The fact is that, as a people, we are becoming ever more pagan and the religious vacuum is inevitably filled by other proposals and religious forces," he said. "If we consider ourselves a Christian country, we should return to the practice of Christian life, which would also solve the problem of empty cradles." (I love his use of 'we'.  The truth is a large number of Italians would not consider themselves part of his 'we'.

Father Gheddo is a well-respected member of the Vatican's Pontificial Institute for Foreign Missionaires.

His comments were made in response to Libyan chief of state Moammar Khadafy, who said this week that Europe should convert to Islam.

Khadafy, on an official visit to Italy, laced his speech with controversial remarks, such as, "Tomorrow Europe might no longer be European, and even black, as there are millions who want to come in."

"We don't know if Europe will remain an advanced and united continent or if it will be destroyed, as happened with the barbarian invasions," Khadafy added, before handing out free copies of the Koran.

Incensed that Muslims could one day outnumber Christians in Europe, Gheddo vowed to bring more attention to the issue. (Could be European Muslims will be secularized long before Islam is able to take over the Continent. A likely fact Khadafy ignores as well.)

The media hasn't "seriously taken into consideration how to respond to this challenge of Islam," he said, "which sooner or later will conquer the majority in Europe."

Gheddo intends to change that.  (Easy for him to say as he can be all talk and no walk.)

"The challenge must be taken seriously," he said.

*********************************************

It's hard to take this particular challenge seriously when it's being issued by a man who can't be part of his desired solution.  At least not officially, that is. It's exactly the same situation Catholic lay reformers are in when it comes to the priesthood.  We can talk all we want, but by definition will not be a deciding part of any solutions.  It's a frustrating place to be.

I couldn't help but notice that Fr. Gheddo places the blame for the demographic problems he sees in Italy on abortion and broken families.  I suspect economic factors,  birth control, and the reluctance of Italian males to enter into marriage has more to do with his perceived state of affairs.  I see very little reason that the same kinds of factors won't impact Islamic immigrants.  Secularizing tendencies, like higher levels of education for women, effect all religious denominations.  Even the most reactionary.  Perhaps most fundamentally the most reactionary.

Fr Gheddo, whether he intends to admit this or not, is making the case that Islam has more power over it's adherents than Catholicism.  I wonder how true that will be when adherents of Islam find themselves in truly open secular societies.  Even truly theocratic states like Iran are finding it harder and harder to keep secular ideas from 'infecting' their people and changing their cultures.  Especially in the younger generations who have taken like ducks to water to the global revolution in communication technologies.  Especially younger women.

I truly wonder if Fr. Gheddo's real concern is not Islamic immigration but the changing status of women in western culture.  One of the real changes is that women are making decisions about children on the ability to raise them, not just have them.  Children are no longer seen as 'random' gifts from God, but a serious personal responsibility.  One that calls for serious consideration about all kinds of factors which impact families and family size.  Women in the west have been empowered to have the primary voice in how many children they will have and when they will have those children.  Motherhood and parenting is no longer a random crap shoot at the behest of male sexual need.  Parental complementarity, as opposed to gender complementarity, is a much broader concept in which parental roles and responsibilities are shared across the board. It's incomprehensible to me that Islam will prove any better at stopping this trend than Christianity has, because the truth is this trend towards the empowerment of women actually frees and empowers men in as many ways as it does women---that is if men are willing to see it and willing to value their daughters as much as sons.

There were two other articles I read this morning that are worth  pointing out.  The first is on Michael Bayly's Wild Reed.  It deals with the incredible man/boy subculture with in the Taliban in Afghanistan.  This is a culture which stones homosexuals by religious law.  The rationale used by men who engage in man/boy sexual partnerships is that it's not homosexuality because they are not in love with their boys.  I guess that makes this religiously sanctioned sexual exploitation of young boys. And it's based in pathological levels of misogyny.

The other article is on Bilgrimage and deals with Focus On The Family's keynote convention speaker, Newt Gingrich.  Perhaps Newt's talk will explain his concepts about how repeated practice makes monogamous traditional heterosexual marriage better--at least for traditional powerful men like himself.

64 comments:

  1. Here's the irony. He's calling for births, but not for baptisms. And so many in Europe are not baptizing the babies who are born anyway... Or if they are baptizing, apparently it's not in the RCC.

    But your point is so well taken. It's the (supposedly) celibate calling for these cradles to be filled. Very simple. Let priests marry and fill cradles! Let the church the support those children! Or why not urge that the Vatican provide subsidies to Catholic parents? So many solutions are available here... ;)

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  2. I still say let secularism take it's course. Educated women see themselves as capable of more than making babies.

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  3. I had this long post I was going to write but instead I'd like to ask Colkoch; why are you a Catholic?

    Jasper

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  4. I was born Catholic, entrained Catholic, educated Catholic, enculturized Catholic, and think Catholic. All of those stages represent different aspects of Catholic understanding. Going back to stages I or II is not in the cards no matter what Benedict might demand.

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  5. Jasper, It seems you ask a lot of questions. I wish you would attempt to contribute more to the spirituality of this board which is a good place to understand just why we are Catholic.

    In fact some cradle catholics on this board have turned to other venues to progress in spirituality rather than the Roman church as we see it as a reactionary part of spirituality. Rome is not contributing to the universal church at least in the first world because it's policy of rule causes fewer and fewer pews to be occupied. I suspect this will one day be true in Africa as it is now true in South America.

    Why are we Catholic. How about 18 years of Catholic education. How about a lifetime of socializing with Catholics. How about a life time of trying to understand more truth. All these things make me Catholic, yet I am more likely found in a non catholic pew on sunday and a catholic pew during the week. I know that might seem confusing to you, but the leadership in Rome is extremely poor. Should I give up on my Church when faced with such poor leadership?

    I know you may disagree that the leadership is poor but perhaps that is your journey to understand. dennis

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  6. Dennis that's an interesting point you make because I too am much more likely to be found in a Catholic pew during the week. Weekends are a different story.

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  7. Colkoch, Dennis,

    Thanks for the response. But it seems you disagree with many of the core values/teachings of the Catholic church. I don't belong to religions I dislike and have vast diffrences with. The UU church it seems would be the perfect fit for you, they have no official creed or dogma, they use the democratic process and take votes, etc. there is no heirachy to report to. You can be pro-choice, pro-homoseuxal marriage, etc, pretty much set your own values..

    I get the sense you stay Catholic just to rebel...

    Jasper

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  8. Jasper I think one thing your generation is missing about ours, is that abortion and gay marriage were never considered 'core' values when we were growing up. They were individual pastoral concerns having very little to do with one's definition of being Catholic.

    What made a person Catholic was attending Mass, one's parish, the rosary, sacramental rites of passage, and some quirky things like not eating meat on Fridays and Holy Days of Obligation--oh yea, and big families.

    Catholicism was not defined by it's moral theology, but by it's ritual, spirituality-especially Marian, and ethnic parishes.

    Vatican II came along and freed up Catholic thinking. Especially for those of us raised on the Baltimore Catechism and the triumphalism of Pius XII. It was like night and day. Unfortunately some members of the curia could not take the implications of Vatican II notions of their authority. Rather than risk a major reduction in authority they opted to use sexual morality as their battle ground over which to maintain their authority. Hence Humanae Vitae and then abortion and now gay marriage.

    In the meantime, clerical sexual abuse was rampant and bubbling under the surface. This is no accident. Abuse of power and sexual abuse are linked. The Church is engaged in both abuses at this very moment, which is why I wrote yesterday on the prey/predator and victim/abuser dynamic. True healing will call for Catholic leadership to move beyond this dynamic, but that will mean giving up both some of their power and the current obsession with sexual morality as a controlling strategy.

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  9. Arm-chair psychology is unwise... if you have no training in it, especially given that three who've commented here this morning are shrinks.

    It's a big mistake to presume things about people, Jasper. Especially to try and do that with folks who have in depth training in psychotherapy.

    So instead of pontificating about others, I suggest you concentrate on yourself - what motivates you, what matters to you, how you view the church. That's where, for sure, you are the expert. Join the conversation that way.

    As for the relationships that God has with others, unless you can see into the mind of God, best not to tread on that Holy Ground.

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  10. Perhaps someone can explain this to me: Why is it that when I have a disagreement with Church hierarchy there are only 2 prescriptive remedies. The first one is always that I should be more humble and therefore become more accepting of authority. The other, as the anonymous poster above suggests is that I take my ball and go 'home' [meaning generally another church group]?

    Why is that that some people simply can't accept that I - in perfectly good conscience - have a legitimate difference of opinion with them on some topic and refuse to have the same humbleness they would prescribe for me and leave the difference of opinion for God to sort out?

    Makes me incredibly sad for the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church is still home to some degree.
    Veronica

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  11. I wonder exactly what definition of 'broken family' this cleric is using. I wonder if he is including in this description all the Catholic married couples who do - after examination of conscience and finding themselves unable to care for more children - use birth control.
    Veronica

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  12. "Jasper, It seems you ask a lot of questions. I wish you would attempt to contribute more to the spirituality of this board"

    So is 'Jasper' just supposed to watch the blinking lights...or become part of some unthinking 'amen corner'?

    Regardless of whether I agree with what Jasper says (or not) I defend his right to ask such pointed & necessary questions. What is being done by such statements is to censor.

    Jasper is not presuming anything. He is asking for reasonable clarification. He is also stating what is made obvious by the words of others.

    If I claim to be Catholic, yet deny the bodily Resurrection of Christ or the Assumption of the BVM....then I am not Catholic. I am not fooling anyone, except perhaps myself.

    The core of the Catholic Faith is not the Vatican, its Administration, nor the Papacy itself. It core is summarized in the Apostles Creed, which is entirely coherent with Christ & His teaching: the Gospel. If you do not believe these things, then you are not a Catholic. If you do not believe in the Commandments....ditto.

    It's that simple.

    Anon Y. Mouse

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  13. 1. What is good & true of Humanae Vitae is the statement condemning the frivilous use of birth control to facilitate hedonism. There is nothing further to discuss.

    At the same time, a public health crisis of AIDS mandates the very moral use of condoms to prevent the transmission of deadly disease. PLUS the wise & gentle proper teaching about sexual morality. On both counts, the Vatican has failed miserably.

    2. Abortion is murder, and is simply out of the question. Period.

    If there is pregnancy, that life exists due to the Will of God. No man has the right to do murder.

    A woman who cannot safely have children should not get pregnant. Therefore the use of birth control in marriage is quite moral for her. To NOT use it would be immoral!

    3. In dire economic circumstances of famine & extreme poverty, the properly educated use of birth control (voluntarily!) would be in order.

    4. Sacramental marriage is only between a man & a woman. End of story.

    A same sex couple is entitled to full civil/human rights - including that of a civil wedding. A civil wedding is not a 'marriage' (see above). Yet that does not mean that God does not love & bless them. They are His creatures.

    Anon Y. Mouse

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  14. As to abortion & gay marriage being involved with the 'core values' of the Catholic Faith....they always were.

    Abortion never was permissible, as it is murder. It was spoken of less for the simple reason that it was not as prevalent.

    Gay marriage was (and is) a spiritual impossibility. So it was not considered. Now the problem is that the Church both contributed to & exarcerbated the two main problems of gay persons:

    a) the unjust persecution of gays.

    b) the promotion & proliferation of the 'gay lifestyle'(which is hedonism).

    No third, reasonable option was offered by the Church to gays. A & B are both cause & effect, as well as a vicious cycle.

    Stable relationships for gay persons is a morally & spiritually legitimate thing. Providing the needed emotional & mental security for their proper functioning as human beings with souls.

    The 'gay lifestyle" (partying, multiple sex partners, cruising, porn, etc.) is what is held out to gays as 'the life' It is not life; it is death. It is soul killing. As is the gay social mileau which promotes & encourages it by peer pressure. Combine this with the external societal stress of isolation & persecution (even if subtle) by str8 society, and we have very messed up gay ppl.

    It can also be proven that the Church (and persons & entities linked with it)have proprietary interests in the establishments which have enabled this.

    Anon Y.Mouse

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  15. Abortion was spoken of less because it was illegal and in the closet. Abortion has always been classified as a form or murder, but not always from conception. Quickening was Aquinas's cutoff.

    The truth is the 'gay' lifestyle is not all that different from the swingin singles straight life style--or most high schools. Both are hedonistic and exploitive. It's well past time we looked at the straight end of things and stopped using the 'gay life style' as a smoke screen to avoid looking at the less than pleasant aspects of straight sexual culture.

    It does seem the Church has had a proprietary interest in promoting this seeming dichotomy.

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  16. Fr. Gheddo's argument is a variation on the argument you hear in this country that "white people aren't having enough babies." You hear this argument from some Americans on the political right. There is a rather unsubtle racist subtext to these arguments and in its most extreme form, it leads to pogroms, lynchings, and genocides.

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  17. Colkoch- Why exactly is "the gay lifestyle hedonistic and exploitative"? I thought you were pro gay rights.

    Kallisti

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  18. Colkoch, Veronica,

    I can't imagine someone saying the Rosary or recieving communion then supporting abortion rights, it make me phyically ill when I think about.

    "Why is that that some people simply can't accept that I - in perfectly good conscience"

    You do not have a well formed conscience if you support the right to kill unborn babies.

    Thou shall not kill is one of the ten commandments, if you can agree with at least this basic commandment, I would suggest a move to the UU church.

    Jasper

    Jasper

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  19. K. Hughes,

    I suggest you shut off MSNBC.

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  20. "It's a big mistake to presume things about people, Jasper."

    What did I presume Thera?


    Jasper

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  21. The heart of Catholicism is decidedly not moral matters. To make it so is to make it indistinguishable from Phariseeism. Even the Catechism places moral matters not in the first place of faith, but in a latter place.

    Why I stay Catholic has nothing to do with conscientious dissent from some magisterial pronouncements. It is Catholicism's rich and beautiful AND CENTRAL notion of sacramentality of the world.

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  22. Now, I know I have strong convictions, but I won't bite, I promise.

    Kallisti

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  23. Kallisti I was referencing more of the hard core bath house life style. I support gay rights all the way but I'm not blind to the fact gay sexuality, like straight sexuality, has it's exploitive sub cultures and industries, and more or less for the same reasons.

    Jasper, I am a total pacifist. It's taken me a while to get to this position. What I personally find as obnoxious as you seem to find pro choice Catholics is pro lifers who think there is such a thing as just war or any legitimate reasons for capital punishment.

    Or that 'collateral damage' is somehow not really murder because it wasn't intended. Which is saying what, a pilot of an F16 intends to drop duds? Or a drunk driver who kills a car load of kids didn't really intend to, the kids were just collateral damage from strapping on a bar stool.

    Cardinal Bernardin's concept of the seamless garment made very good sense to me. I don't know where that concept went.

    I do know, at least for me, making abortion the end all and be all with no exceptions is out of balance and places an unequal value on fetal life. Fetal life is not more precious than any other life.

    The thing is if you take the pro life position to it's ultimate conclusion about the sanctity of fetal life, abortion is a straight ticket to heaven. A parent is actually doing their child a great favor even though they may be condemning themselves.

    Find a history of the Church's teachings on abortion, miscariages, and infant death. The history is not so cut and dried and the effort may prove worth your time. It's always been a murky area this business of when life begins and when ensoulment occurs. It still is.

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  24. Okay, I get that. It just sounded a little strange to me at first, that's all. :)

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  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  26. Science?

    Why not consult a scientist about this issue of relative population growth rates.

    Professor Hans Rosling shows why the claim that Europe will become Muslim is false. Why listen to blowhards like Khadafy and the naive like Gheddo at all?

    http://www.gapminder.org/videos/gapcasts/gapcast-8-turkey-meets-france/

    p2p

    word verification; chador !!!

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  27. p2p that is a great word verification given the topic.

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  28. Colleen,

    I've not forgotten about you. You're on my list close to the pet food. This is a very busy time of year for me and I haven't yet been able to get my financial life online.

    The comment activity has exploded in the last few days. Not all of it has been pleasant, as you know.

    Mrs. p2p and I walk our dog in the woods about three times a week. Not long ago, on our wedding anniversary, a doe came out to see us and chew a few leaves before slowly returning to the forest. She's the only one we've seen this year.

    Best Wishes,

    p2p

    word verification: social

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  29. P2p,

    Your comment reminds me of Hendrickson's law: If a discusion causes too many comments some make the comments more important than the discussion.

    Even it seems Borklund's law may apply here: Communication = the square root of the mistakes times confusion times contradictions.

    There is also Beshere's formula for failure: There are only two kinds of people who fail-- those who listen to nobody and those who listen to everybody.

    I took of my last post because maybe it was clutter. dennis

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  30. Kevin57, were you born in Denver? dennis

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  31. " Even the Catechism places moral matters not in the first place of faith, but in a latter place. "

    Doesn't mean they're less important, this sounds like you're trying to justify immorality

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  32. "The thing is if you take the pro life position to it's ultimate conclusion about the sanctity of fetal life, abortion is a straight ticket to heaven. A parent is actually doing their child a great favor even though they may be condemning themselves."

    Coleen, you can't be serious? are you joking? ...


    Jasper

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  33. "The heart of Catholicism is decidedly not moral matters."

    This is overtly false. The heart of Catholicism is Christ. He is the fulfillment of the Law & the Prophets. The Law is all about basic morality; it is a simple set of rules which He has given us to live by.

    "Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled."

    "...But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself....".

    Obedience to these basic rules is necessary if one is going to follow Christ in truth.

    Anon Y.Mouse

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  34. @ Jasper & Mouse

    Stop.

    You may think your comments are witty in an asteistic manner. Polite insults are insults nevertheless.

    This is the meaning I read in your general approach to commenting lately: "Colleen I think you write quite well, for a woman... Your understanding of Catholicism is pretty good, for a heretic... Your contributors seem pretty cheerful, for people who are condemned to hell... Those fags are quite fun, for minions of satan... Maciel and Escriva are great saints and defenders of the faith, you'd understand if you only prayed to God not satan, witch... Don't bother your little head with philosophy, theology, and all that hard stuff, do as I say, bitch... Here let us show you the way to exit the church, here's your hat... What's your hurry?"

    Harsh?

    Why don't you and like minded people leave the RC Church to find something a little more to your liking? ... a little more oppressive, obsessed, sexist, racist, fascist, irrelevant and less concerned with Jesus' message? ... Like SSPX?

    p2p

    and here's the capper, my word verification is "kneed"

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  35. p2p I had a good chuckle with your last comment. It's a little harsher than my own interpretation but that could be because I just finished reading a fascninating article on the Andrea Yates case.

    I have to thank Jasper for triggering this in my memory. Yates was the Houston woman who drowned all five of her children to keep them from the satan's clutches and make sure they went to heaven.

    The issues this case brought up in court are really fascinating, especially since the trial was held in the middle of the Bible belt. It was a virtual perfect storm of issues for attorneys, mental health professionals, state law, and fundamentalist religious concepts. I will be writing on this case.

    Jasper, women suffering from post partum depression do commit infanticide for these explicit religious reasons. So no, I wasn't particularly joking.

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  36. Thanks Colleen,

    You are a better person than I am.

    I'm putting my sword back in the scabbard.

    I'm stepping away from the sandwich.

    Have a great weekend.

    p2p

    PS The Yates case was heartbreaking for so many reasons.

    Why doesn't everyone rent "The Apostle (1997)" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118632/ for a truly nuanced look at religious obsession. Maybe we could have a nice conversation, reestablish some trust and dialog. That would good.

    See Roger Ebert's review here: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19980130/REVIEWS/801300301/1023

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  37. p2p - I believe the one's you mention are only here to preach a certain brand of catholicism that is authoritarian and in need of reform & conversion of heart to Christ. They are here to question our faith, start arguments, push buttons, insult, try to encourage people to leave the Church. This is quite simply the work of the devil. They will deny this, of course.

    Faith to the mouses of the world is the Catechism, not the living word. Mice do not know of the experience of the living word or of true conversion of heart to Christ on a daily basis.

    Despite the fact that I had answered the question multiple times to Mouse, and Mouse saying multiple times back that "all I had to do was answer the question" and also the mouse saying he/she would "gladly" have apologized to me, there was never an apology to me for her/his cruel insults.

    Part of my answer to Mouse was for Mouse to take a look at his/her actions & thoughts. Since I have never involved myself in new age or the occult stuff, that Mouse seemed to think that what I wrote was from such a source, in truth was truly from what Mouse is projecting or reading into from having been acquainted with new age or the occult herself or himself. Mouse painted her/his view onto mine which is not Truth, it is projection.

    What I find to be a disgrace and not of service to Jesus Christ or our neighbors is to whip out the Catechism for all the "answers" of the 'Catholic Faith' & if anyone has any doubts or even questions related to that they are discharged from membership of the 'faith' by the Mouses of the world.

    The only prerequisite to Jesus' healing anyone or allowing access to Him or His mercy, forgiveness & love, wisdom, is the Faith that Jesus is the source of our Faith.

    The Catechism can be helpful to some, but for me it is not. I have a living Faith.

    Faith in the Catechism or Faith in Jesus Christ is the question.

    I answer to a higher authority than the Mouses in this world who prefers to deny a Living Faith unless it conforms to their idea of Faith.

    For the mouses of the world to make the false accusation that I or anyone here has no Faith in God or love for Jesus is insulting not just to us but to God & the Resurrected Jesus of which we are in Communion with. To say I lack faith is the ultimate in insults. For the mouses of the world to keep repeating the same old stuff from the Catechism is not a sign of life but of stagnancy and mental blocks that are stumbling blocks to building a living Faith.

    I have much more to say but will not engage in conversations in which my Faith in God is denied. I consider such an insult an attack, a grave error in judgment, immaturity & no true discernment of Living Faith and a sign of the incapacity & refusal to love one's neighbor. To try to deliberately push my buttons are a temptation for me to anger so I will ignore anything but an apology to me by the mouses of the world.

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  38. {{{Butterfly}}}

    The pilgrimage, by any other name, is a wonderful way to understand one's spiritual journey. It isn't without effort, stumbles and falls. Sometimes we meet others who help us on the way. Other times we become weary. We don't need to be traveling in the same way on the same day. Ultimately I hope we all arrive at our destinations but the journey itself should be worthwhile.

    Probably better to lend a hand and, to the extent possible provide some encouragement to others along the way. Yes, we already know we're sinners.

    Anyway.

    Mrs. p2p and I would like to walk the Camino Santiago de Compostela in the not too distant future.

    Check one pilgrim's photos here:
    http://www.madmaxii.co.nz/

    p2p

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  39. Where is The Camino Santiago de Compostella?

    Thanks for the link. I enjoyed the visual pilgrimage very much and it helped me as the road now is very steep and I am tired and thirsty and saddened, grieving, praying, thinking and am learning each step of the way.

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  40. "Faith in the Catechism or Faith in Jesus Christ is the question.'

    The question then is: which Jesus?

    For all of its flaws, the pristene Catholic Faith - the single greatest deposit of spiritual truth - has come down to us IN SPITE OF the Vatican.By the action of the Holy Ghost.

    We are not speaking of what is permissible to members of a global,man-made & run entity: the Roman Catholic Church. We are speaking of the Catholic Faith. These two are not one & the same...

    Even though the "Catholic Church" would not exist for centuries to come, all early Christians were of the Catholic Faith. This is spiritual reality; not semantics. The summation of what they believed,in outline form, is given in the Apostles Creed.

    The early Christians most certainly believed in the Sacraments, Transubstantiation, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, the Assumption of Mary, her Immaculate Conception, Confession & Absolution of Sins (both public & private forms). They had a ministerial priesthood by ordination. They firmly held to the Law. The indissolubility of marriage, reasonable sexual morality, & that abortion was forbidden as murder.

    The precise expression & delineation of all of these....is another matter.But there is no point is trying to deny the truth of any of the above.

    Those who do not believe in the core elements of the Catholic Faith, yet claim to believe in Christ.....may be believing in something other then Jesus of Nazareth. And are ripe pickings for the False Christ, when it shall be manifested.

    Anon Y.Mouse

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  41. @Butterfly

    The traditional route begins in France, crosses the border into Spain, along the northern regions of Spain west to the Atlantic coast just north of Portugal.

    http://www.caminodesantiago.me.uk/

    p2p

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  42. It has been made very clear that Maciel & Escriva were both examples of many of the classic symptioms of demonic possession. And just as obvious that I do not support either, nor their works, as they serve Satan.

    But apparently its much more fun to twist facts & play games.....

    There is no such thing as 'stages of Catholicism'. When we speak of the true & pristene core of the Catholic Faith, one either believes in it or not.

    The Donatists did not believe in the Divinity of Christ. Thus were not of the Faith. In no way did this justify murdering them! They should have been corrected: the Truth spoken to them. That whose who would See & Hear do so.

    Neither pew sitting, Catholic education, socializing, nor assertion of ideology or membership in some 'group' = the Catholic Faith. Nor does a reactionary move the the extreme Left of 'have it your way' have anything to do with Christ.

    Ordination of women to the ministerial priesthood is simply out of the question. That has nothing to do with Vatican policy or any any cries of 'unfair'. It has to do with the Will of God. Christ did not call female Apostles. He did call female Disciples. There was & is a difference; and their role in the early Church was a valued one.

    The desire for women priests is based in "I wanna". The same can be said of many men who think they want or deserve to be priests. What "I want" may not be what God Wills.

    God's Will is only known through prayer which is based in true Faith. Wherein one does not treat God like Santa Claus. But rather prays: "Thy Will - not my will - be done". If something is His Will, it will be. If it is not, it will not happen. True prayer is cooperating with the Will of God.

    At the same time, many men have selfishly sought Ordination as "I wanna". If they are Ordained, it is the Will of God. If such happens as a result of His Passive Will, which allows evil.....I pity such men.

    Anon Y. Mouse

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  43. "What I find to be a disgrace and not of service to Jesus Christ or our neighbors is to whip out the Catechism for all the "answers" of the 'Catholic Faith'"

    I didn't realize you were a heretic Butterfly? A true heretic in every sense of the word.

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  44. To respond to some questions and retorts:

    1) No, I am not from Denver. Born and raised and live in Chicago.

    2) The moral code of Catholicism is important, but it clearly stands under and in a lesser position than relationship in Christ. Oh, I have a Masters degree in Theology. If you disagree, would you please cite your expertise in theological matters?

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  45. "Jasper, women suffering from post partum depression do commit infanticide for these explicit religious reasons. So no, I wasn't particularly joking."

    Colcoch,

    Judging from your responses, the only thing I can think of is that you must be suffering from something tramatic that happened in your life. I'm guessing you've may had an abortion, or more likely, many abortions. You can get help for this.

    Jasper

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  46. "The moral code of Catholicism is important, but it clearly stands under and in a lesser position than relationship in Christ."

    Kevin,

    I think your problem may in fact be your degree in Theology. As Father Corapi would say, you've edjucated yourself into stupidity.


    Jasper

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  47. Yes, I've "edjucated" myself into stupidity. Nice.

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  48. "I think your problem may in fact be your degree in Theology. As Father Corapi would say, you've educated yourself into stupidity."

    While I am not a fan of Corapi, if the shoe fits.....

    Nobody has the right to sin, much less to teach other that which is contrary to God's Law is 'correct'.

    To be of Christ one must live the Law. The two are inseperable. "You must be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect". Such perfection is only possible via prayer. In unity & cooperation with His Will.

    This has nothing to do with Phasiseeism or any type of Fanaticism. The essence of Faith is: Spiritual Coherence. Hence why living the Law & love of and belief in Christ must all be together.

    Anon Y. Mouse

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  49. "The moral code of Catholicism is important, but it clearly stands under and in a lesser position than relationship in Christ. Oh, I have a Masters degree in Theology. If you disagree, would you please cite your expertise in theological matters?"

    1)One cannot ignore the Law yet claim to believe in and love God. Christ plainly taught that to be of His Kingdom one MUST live the Law and follow Him. The two are inseperable.

    2)Crowing about one's alleged academic qualifications do not equal a valid form of debate. Nor do they verify, justify, or in some bizarre manner silence all possible assertions.

    3) Which prompts the question: 'theology of.....what?'

    Anon Y. Mouse

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  50. Fellow Catholics,

    I good preist/teacher is Fr Barron, you can watch his 5-8minutes clips here:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/wordonfirevideo

    Mouse,
    Sorry you're not a fan of Father Corapi. I met him once, I he's great.


    Jasper

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  51. "Sorry you're not a fan of Father Corapi. I met him once, I he's great. "

    I do not think the man is inherently evil. He does say some things which are true. I have taken the time to listen to some of his sermons.

    The problem lies is what 'supports' him, more then the man himself.

    Anon Y. Mouse

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  52. "The problem lies is what 'supports' him, more then the man himself."

    What do you mean mouse? can you explain further?

    Jasper

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  53. Jasper, this post was about a priest whose idea of spreading Christianity is to lay a guilt trip on Western parents--women--for not producing enough babies so that Europe can defend itself against another patriarchal religion who also claim it's God's will for women to pump out all the babies they can.

    I mentioned the story of Andrea Yates for a number of reasons, and one of them was to demonstrate why demanding women turn out babies on a yearly basis as some sort of Divine mandate is not a good idea.

    Understanding her story would take compassion on your part. A concept you either don't understand or don't find important. Apparently for you it's much easier to diagnose 'trauma' in others. It is for me too, but I really try not to make a habit of it. It's intrusive and rude and lacks compassion.

    I try not to judge the relative state of another person's 'heresy' or "Catholic Faith" quotient because I haven't walked in their shoes. I will point out the hypocrisy and discrimination in Church leadership and teaching, especially when these things cause real pain and victimize others.

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  54. The construct of 'Eurabia' of which this priest is referencing (in the call for more Catholic babies) is a ficticious issue.

    It is mere 'busy work' to keep the disorientated faithful all riled up about.....nothing. Yes, it involves racism & related issues. But there are far more important geopolitical/georeligious issues to be concerned about.

    Perhaps you should consider offering the Via Crucis, or Divine Mercy Chaplet, or Rosary....for the conversion of Rev. Terry Jones, who wants to burn the Holy Koran. Pray for his conversion & illumination by the Holy Spirit. And that the Will of God in this issue be done, whatever He Wills.

    The matter of Andrea Yates is a phantom issue. Her problem was gross spiritual dysfunction. What she did is obvious wrong, immoral and sinful. End of story. And may God have mercy on her soul.

    She is wrong for having done murder. Any fanatical religious considerations are beside the point. They are neither a valid pretext for such sin, nor are they a valid pretext to 'dis' religion itself.

    Anon Y. Mouse

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  55. Jasper -

    The problem with Fr. Corapi is quite simple: he is Opus Dei. They picked him up, dusted him off, trained him in their University of Navarre....and bankrolled his ministry.

    I am not saying he has fangs & breathes fire. As a person he seems to be well intentioned. A lot of what he says is good. But not everything. When one has such 'godfathers' there is always a spiritual compromise. Regardless of any good intentions.

    Anon Y. Mouse

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  56. "The problem with Fr. Corapi is quite simple: he is Opus Dei."

    So? What is wrong with Opus Dei?

    I like them.

    Jasper

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  57. When one is on pilgrimage, when one is seeking the Way, there are those who guide, there are those who lend a hand when the going is tough or give support or a cool drink when one is tired and thirsty as butterfly says. I welcome those people in to my life.
    There are also those who complain and criticize every move I make. They make the walk longer, the sky darker, put rocks in my path, mock me when I fall. I do not see them as the true guides sent me by the Lord.

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  58. Thanks Coolmom.

    I recall a song that speaks about just that thing!!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrZHPOeOxQQ

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  59. Jasper -

    "So? What is wrong with Opus Dei?"

    Everything. But rather then write a lengthy explanation, I would suggest that you pray for the illumination of the Holy Spirit in this matter. If you ask sincerely, being completely open to whatever it is that God Wills you to know, the answer will be given to you.

    Peace.

    Anon Y.Mouse

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  60. Bishop Fulton Sheen:

    America, it is said, is suffering from intolerance — it is not. It is suffering from tolerance. Tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos. Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded.

    Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil ... a forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance applies only to persons ... never to truth.

    Jasper

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  61. Mouse, what you've said to Jasper is what I believe. I was raised in faith, by my church, to be able to talk to God. To trust in the Spirit. To know that I am a cracked mirror, but still must be an image of our Lord.
    Let me use Colleen as my example. I've never seen an orb, never heard my Father's voice in my ear, don't know if other dimensions exist. But I sense a faithful spirit here, a seeker, an adept if you will. My Catholicism energizes and informs me, allows me to pick out God's call amid the cacophony. And here is a place I hear the Voice.

    Jasper, it seems Opus Dei won't allow me to be an adult in the faith. It demands a childlike obedience that I feel is contrary to Jesus' Way. However, if you sincerely are led to service, to faith , to God by these teachings, I'll trust in the Spirit to lead you. Like Mouse. Like Colleen. Like me.

    PS the word was dicspl, so I had to use it.

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  62. Kevin, Thank you for your contributions to this board! I appreciate them very much. I thought you might be a lost friend by the name of Kevin, born in 57. He is also a catholic theologian. The last I heard of him, he was teaching in the South East in a non catholic institution. When I tried to contact him there, I was told that he got a great job in a European Institution. I tried to make contact without luck.

    He was a seminarian friend of mine who was born in Denver and used to write a good deal like you. It would be nice to have more of you on this board. I think we need make just a few comments about obvious zealots and move on with our work group in more spiritual conversation. We all know that Jasper and Mouse will run on and on like they were just poisoned with salmonellae. No more getting caught in this mess without perfumed candles.

    While we can not just leave all falsity unanswered, I like your style of being brief and to the point and look forward to your positive contributions. I am sure you are welcomed by the original thinking study group on this site. dennis

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  63. @ Jasper,

    Yes, we knew you'd like Opus Dei from your very first comment.

    “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” said Nobel laureate Sinclair Lewis, a contemporary of both Fulton Sheen and Escriva.

    Consider today's readings, the parables of the Prodigal Son, the lost sheep and the lost coin.

    Try to imagine yourself as someone other than the self-righteous son who complains his father hasn't even given him a goat, a coat or a party.

    Forget the Catechism, the secret fascist tendencies of OD, concentrate on what Jesus has to say and in what context. Was the whoring spendthrift prodigal son greeted with condemnation and derision?

    Imagine what it must be to be a lost sheep, what a great hope this parable holds that the good shepherd might find and rescue you. Imagine yourself as the woman who loses the coin.

    Here's a particularly good description of the context in which Jesus was preaching:

    http://preacherwoman.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/lost-and-found/

    I consider these to be among the greatest of Jesus' teachings, yet easily forgotten, the most difficult for some to accept, and quite relevant to our talking past each other here lately.

    Jesus does not condemn, nor does the father in the parable...

    and Jasper, in case you missed it, it isn't fair. It just isn't fair.

    p2p

    ps Colleen thanks for adding comment moderation.

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  64. Thanks for the compliments, and I'm sorry to disappoint. I was born and raised and currently live in Chicago.

    I concur that engaging with people who--in my view--lack sacramentality as the very heart of the Catholic faith cannot endure dialogue. In short, I will no longer feed the Trolls. I do enjoy the posts and responses here.

    I only recently found this blog. It was "The Wild Reed" that directed me here. I am happy.

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