Tuesday, October 5, 2010


St Francis was one Catholic male who seemed to get the androgynous aspects of Jesus's teachings.  He was not your typical heterosexual male--much to his father's frustration.


Over at America Magazine Father Jim Martin asks "What is a Catholic response to gay suicide?"  The Catholic response, at least as it is espoused by the Magisterium, is to continue to demand that gays stay in the closet, stay silent, and stay celibate.  If gays are willing to do that they are welcome in the Church even as our  Pope continues to maintain that gays are disordered in their very nature.  Catholicism for a gay person is a lose lose situation in that you can't win for losing until you die.  The most hope Catholicism offers is to somehow avoid despair while your priests fill your parish reading table full of KofC literature that refers to you as a sodomite and your straight peers are allowed to bully the crap out of you.

The one aspect I don't get about Catholicism's obsession with correct heterosexual sex and correct gender roles are the actions and teachings of Jesus himself.  I don't think Jesus was teaching precepts that underscored heterosexual male gender traits.  In fact, I think He was teaching just the opposite.  He wasn't teaching dominance. He was teaching connections and cooperation.  He wasn't teaching that rational thought was the end all and be all of humanity's intellectual capacity.  In fact it seems He made many of His parables intentionally difficult to understand via rational logical  thought processes.  They encourage counter intuitive solutions which is one reason they were rejected and/or misunderstood by His male followers.  He didn't teach life as a competitive game, nor bless the pursuit of wealth and political dominance.  In fact He taught that one must work to become a cultural loser in order to become a spiritual winner.  He didn't propagate His own genetics nor demand any woman to take care of His every whim.  In fact, the temptations in the desert were all about rejecting what the dominant male heterosexual culture considered markers of success. 

In Jesus's Church, at least one that more reflected what He actually taught, gay men and all women would have a much higher place in the scheme of things because Jesus's teachings are more faithfully reflected in an androgynous world view.  What the Church has now is a sexually based 'gender complimentarity' which places straight males as the dominant force.  Jesus was teaching a far more androgynous spirituality which called for the blending of both rational and emotional/intuitive approaches and had very little to do with sexuality. 

Not surprisingly current psi research is demonstrating that the most effective practitioners of psi phenomenon are androgynous in terms of gender intelligence.  They are both rational and emotive/intuitive.  Gays are over represented in their ranks, especially amongst males.  This is a fact that also shows up in many religious cultures and spiritual systems.  The so called 'third gender' is over represented in the ranks of healers, shamans, and mystics--just as it is in the Catholic priesthood.  Think there might be a message here?

What do I think would be a good Catholic response to gay suicides?  We might try recognizing the fact that heterosexual males are the least genetically adapted to understand or accept what Jesus was on about.  Then we might ask ourselves why we have placed our souls at the mercy of the very men who are least likely to really understand the teachings they teach us--especially the parts about compassion and non judgment.

32 comments:

  1. It's interesting to observe what Satan was offering Jesus during that little stay in the desert. You want money? Power? Political clout? Bow down, worship me and I'll make you the perfect straight white Republican man!
    Jesus told him where to stick it.
    It is sad indeed that we entrust our souls to those who really don't give a woo-woo about them. They are after worldly respect and a high standard of living. They never ask themselves, to whom are they really bowing down?

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  2. Fr. Martin's analysis about staying quiet and in the closet helped me understand the unconscionable silence of the hierarchy in the face of a "epidemic" of gay youth suicides. How could anyone who claims simple humanity, let alone Christianity, not respond with at least verbal compassion? Now, yes, I do understand...and I'm all the more outraged.

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  3. Kevin the real silence surrounds how many of our own clergy have committed suicide over this exact issue and the resulting depression.

    Lay Catholics have just got to stop enabling the sexual insanity that is being perpetrated by this Church. There is very little that is pro life about any of it.

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  4. Sadly, there were commenters after Fr. Martin's posting who couldn't refrain from blaming the gay youths for killing themselves.

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  5. Lynx, Your point about entrusting our souls to people who don't care about them is well taken. Sometimes it's easier to see the phenomenon in the behavior of others, which is why I think the Bishop Eddie Long story has much to tell Catholics about the motivation of some of the men who purport to lead us.

    Khughes, I too was saddened by the comments which seemed to imply the kids were at soley at fault. I was also upset with commenters who seemed to think gay kids didn't have it any worse than other teens, or the ones that suggested the statistics are just another example of the ills of the 'gay life style'. At 13 these suicides are far more the product of the ills of the 'Christian' heterosexual belief system.

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  6. We're all doomed!

    It isn't just the gays. Outside of marriage everyone is supposed to be chaste. No exceptions.

    See: Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Vocation to Chastity
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

    2342 Self-mastery is a long and exacting work...

    2348 All the baptized are called to chastity...

    Offenses against chastity

    2351 - 2379
    Lust, Masturbation, Fornication, Pornography, Prostitution, Rape, Homosexuality,

    Offenses against Marriage:

    2380 - 2391
    Infidelity, Artificial Contraception, Adultery, Polygamy, Incest, Concubinage, Pre-marital Sex

    To sum things up:

    2390 "The sexual act must take place exclusively within marriage. Outside of marriage it always constitutes a grave sin and excludes one from sacramental communion."

    When lusting in your heart and masturbation are as grave sins as the rest you have a very serious flaw in the Church's fundamental approach to sexuality. Sex sends you right straight to hell. The image of the Christian devil is derived from the ancient Greek satyr.

    And you don't have to be Catholic to be so impossibly deluded about the nature of human sexuality. Ted Haggard's meth fueled romp with a gay prostitute is an example of someone who cannot discern the difference between a minor offense, thinking a dirty thought, and carrying it the action.

    Sick.

    p2p

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  7. @ Colleen,

    Could you please check and see what happened to my last comment? I don't think there's anything controversial about it at all. It appeared then disappeared.

    Thanks,

    p2p

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  8. p2p for some reason it was in the SPAM bin. Blogger has been reworking the commenting program and strange stuff now happens with longer comments--even my own.

    I often wonder how many folks would be left in the pews if bishops like Neinstedt sent out DVD's instructing one and all on the totality of Catholic sexual morality. Harping on abortion and gays is a very selective application of the totality of the sexual teachings.

    I wonder why they are so selective, couldn't be politics could it? Or pandering to one certain spiritual level of the Church which just happens to have more resources than the rest of us and more reason to project their sin on others?

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  9. Invitation to the conservatives who like to troll the site:

    I've listed the serious, "grave" sins against chastity and marriage and given you the source.

    If masturbation and lusting in your heart are intrinsically mortal sins then why not outlaw them too?

    I think the Catholic Church is on solid grounds to lead the movement to criminalize, or re-criminalize in some jurisdictions, adultery. The Church should insist on the biblical penalty of stoning.

    Doesn't that objective more represent the moral majority or the ideals of a "Christian nation" that the Tea Party and other social conservatives desire?

    While you're at it include a short explanation how the Christian criminalization of adultery and the death penalty by stoning are different from our Abrahamic co-religionists, the Muslims.

    The heretic awaits your answer. I do believe in self-mastery but don't take too long. I can't deny my limbic system too long. I'm a dopamine addict.

    p2p

    word verification for the heretic: reddress

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  10. I just came across this news article. I am absolutely horrified by the position of this archbishop. How dare he refuse Communion on this sort of political grounds. Because he is certainly the person who made the issue political.

    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/10/06/denied-communion

    Veronica

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  11. Maybe someday the church will come to love 2 men or 2 women marrying, and pre-martital sex will be accepted...we can only hope..

    Nancy

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  12. Nancy-

    Slippery Slope. Google it.

    Kallisti

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  13. Kallisti,

    Can you explain?

    Thanks
    Nancy

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  14. My heartfelt sympathy goes out to all of the families who have lost their daughter or son, sister or brother, nephew or niece because of bullying because they were gay or suspected of being so.

    I am really outraged! What a tragic thing kids today are learning from the adults who are being misled, misguided by their church, parents & peers - to bully gay people, call them disordered, deny them privacy, deny them civility and basic human rights to live as God's children, deny them their own God-given identity as persons, deny them respect, deny them marriage, deny them from even having a relationship with whom they are naturally attracted.

    I read the comments that were posted at America Magazine by Fr Jim Martin "What is a Catholic response to gay suicide?" and it was so sad to see that there are cold-hearted, unchristian, brainwashed zombies who dare to call themselves Catholics because at the moment, in the RCC's ignorance it says erroneously & falsely that homosexuals are disordered. It is that teaching that is disordered. It is as unchristian & unholy as the Inquisition for its approval of burning people at the stake!!

    The RCC seems to have the propensity to make up false teachings that intentionally are violently opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ, at least that has been its history since Constantine. The RCC at this time in history, instead of being a role model for the true definition of love, of acting like it knows what "Christ-like" means, chooses instead the role model of bully as being loving!! Very sad situation to witness these young people being bullied to death. It is a tragic loss and speaks about the lack of morals and integrity in teachings that allow and/or enable this bullying of gays to continue.

    I am grateful for Fr. Jim Martin's article and thought his prayer was beautiful. I wish the Pope had a heart like that! This Pope, unfortunately, is causing nothing but ignorance and death & he's the real ring-leader of the bullies against gays.

    I agree Colleen, the teachings of Jesus were "androgynous." Jesus was all about the spirit and gaining access to His Kingdom, and that was made available to all after His death and resurrection with the descent of the Holy Spirit, that "comes and goes where it will" and not just to the Pope like the false teaching of infallibility teaches!

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  15. What if we all started wearing rainbow pins as the students did in Minnesota? (See Veronicas's link.) Maybe it's about time those of us in the middle start taking action.

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  16. Mary H, I would like to see everyone wearing a rainbow pin or ribbon to Mass. That would send out the message that the People of God really care about all people, especially for those being unmercifully bullied. Accepting those who are marginalized and being beaten up by false teachings is the true Christian spirit and the real part of the Catholic tradition that should be kept alive and burning in our hearts or we have failed in our Faith in Jesus Christ, failed to receive Christ's message of love for all who believe in Him.

    The denial of Communion is anti-Christ. The denial of freedom of conscience is anti-Holy Spirit, as well as being anti-Christ. Shame on the bully AB Nienstedt for denying it to those who wore a symbol of their unity and solidarity with their bullied brothers and sisters.

    Who has not worn a political button or some symbol or other to Church at some time or other? Were they denied Communion? Who is the AB to insist people cannot wear a symbol in support of their fellow Catholics who are being bullied and be denied Communion for doing so? It is certainly a very selfish act in denying Communion.

    I would suggest as a test of true Faith in Jesus Christ and love for one's neighbor that all Catholics wear a rainbow pin to Mass.

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  17. Mary H: I'm going up to The Cities this weekend and will be attending Mass with my parents. At the church where they were married 50 years ago. Maybe I should find a rainbow pin for the occassion...
    Veronica

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  18. "Who has not worn a political button or some symbol or other to Church at some time or other?"

    I haven't.

    This is good that they are being denied communion. Anybody who votes for a 'pro-choice' politician or supports sodomy should be denied communion. Any polictian that supports these should be excommunicated from the church.

    Jasper

    Jasper

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  19. Well Jasper Troll, you are probably not even old enough to vote or drive for all we know. I don't happen to agree with you at all and I will leave it up to God to judge what is good for the People of God, not trolls. It certainly is not "good" to be denying people Communion, but if that's the kind of Church you happen to believe is "good" - I feel damn sorry for you, because that is a Church that is dead and not living in Christ and is a slave to ignorance and intellectual sloth.

    If I recall, you like Opus Dei, so your very idea of "good" is suspect. Grow Up!

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  20. Jasper, Jasper, Jasper,

    Here we have our own Mutaween.

    Personally, I'd prefer people don't wear any buttons or uniforms, or jackets with "3 Dale Earnhart" or any t-shirts with "I'm with stupid" or other slogans on them. I really don't like the corporate logos. I'd prefer not to see "Aeropostale" or "Hollister" on every conceivable type of apparel. It isn't dignified. It isn't appropriate for church is it? (Reference to Jesus with the whip removing commerce from the temple.)

    If you don't tell anyone I'll share this little piece of news. At my Church there are a couple of celebrities who attend Mass. One of the men recently got married for the third time. Everybody knows. He's like our own Canadian Mel Gibson. He used to come to church with his second wife and their five children. Not any more. It would really be handy to have someone like you around to prevent him from receiving communion. You'd better be a big guy, 'cause I don't think he'd put up with the crap you spew, even if he is "orthodox". Tell us, would you stop Newt Gingrich from receiving communion? I hope you do. Would you like me to sign your petition? Because I would.

    While you're at it can you tell me how you attained the power to peer deeply into the souls of your fellow human beings? That's an almost Godlike power that you're using to judge. I'd like to know more about how you attained it.

    p2p

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  21. Jasper you slipped one by me, so I'll leave it up and let you take the flack you so richly deserve. While we're on the subject of sodomy the last statistics on the sexual behavior of married couples indicates about thirty percent of those oh so heterosexual males would make your list to be denied communion.

    I just have to shake my head with this deny communion thinking over political buttons. If it takes absolute obedience to every irrational teaching, no one is going to be eligible, but then maybe it's really just a gay thing. It's hard to be the designated 'victim soul' when you're denied participation in the penultimate point of the Mass, but then maybe being thoroughly shoved from the table is part of being the designated 'victim soul'.

    I hope these Bishops of ours keep this nonsense up because it's forcing fence sitters to get off the fence. After all the bishops could start taking the entire teaching on sexual morality seriously and then they could be the next ones shoved from the table.

    p2p I can remember a time I was personally offended. That's when the local college football team had their National Championship trophy on display on the altar at the local Cathedral and all the players were wearing their jerseys. I suppose Jesus cared about this because all the players were ostensibly straight. Yea right.

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  22. "Tell us, would you stop Newt Gingrich from receiving communion?"

    I'm not sure, I know he doesn't support baby killing like you all do...

    "While you're at it can you tell me how you attained the power to peer deeply into the souls of your fellow human beings? "

    I don't peer deeply into souls, you expose yourself fine.

    "I hope these Bishops of ours keep this nonsense up because it's forcing fence sitters to get off the fence."

    And most fence sitters are moving to our side. Your type Coleen (60& 70's radicals)are dying out. I think were going thru a 'purification' period. Your type part of the cancer thats needs to be 'cut off'

    Jasper

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  23. Jasper, I've got some rather terrifying news for you. I'm a screaming eagle, dyed in the wool, true blue Liberal/Progressive and I have no memory of the '60s, or'70s at all, mainly because I didn't exist then.

    What do you think is going to happen when all the grey heads die off? Who is going to preach to the dead?

    Kallisti

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  24. Jasper,

    I told you I am not pro-abortion. I'm pro-contraception.

    Newt Gingrich is an adulterer, as is Deal Hudson. You don't have the stones to stand up to them because you aren't truly a follower of Jesus. Your first allegiance is to the vague notion of political conservatism.

    Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality. He had plenty to say about adultery.

    The Austin Powers movies are not documentaries. Alex P. Keaton was a fictional character. There were more vocations in the 1960's and 1970's than there are today.

    p2p

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  25. "Jasper, I've got some rather terrifying news for you. I'm a screaming eagle, dyed in the wool, true blue Liberal/Progressive"

    Kallisti,

    wouldn't you rather be part of a church that shared your hedonistic views?

    Jasper

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  26. Jasper, I don't think you actually understand the call from your own conservative version of Catholicism. That version calls for humility, prayer, assent to the teachings of ordained others, and respect for one's elders.

    I know all this as I had any number of priests in my younger days explain it all to me. The version that you seem to espouse would be no more recognized by these saintly men than a lot of what I write. The difference between us is I don't pretend to be a 'true Catholic' like you. I am what I am and that's enough for me and God.

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  27. P2p:"I told you I am not pro-abortion. I'm pro-contraception."

    Pro-abortionists, with their willing accomplices in the pro-abortion medical community, devised a lie in the 1970s that has been repeated so often, it is now unquestioned. Defying science and logic, they simply began to claim a mother isn’t pregnant until her very young embryo attaches to her uterus – which takes seven to nine days after conception. So, they said, birth control pills and ECs are not abortifacients, because a mother isn’t pregnant when they cause a week-old embryo to flush from her body.

    Jasper

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  28. Jasper,

    You don't have a clue. Take Colleen's advice.

    p2p

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  29. No Jasper, that's not what they said. They said the embryo isn't viable until it implants in the uterus and whether you like that or not that's a fact.

    Here's another problem with the science of embryology and the absolutism of Catholic teaching. Twinning doesn't occur until two or three days after conception. Do the souls for these lives hang around until twinning occurs or does the soul split? What happens in the case of parasitic twins or parasitic siamese twins?

    These pesky exceptions to the norm are reason enough to think ensoulment doesn't occur at the instant of conception. That's in a purely biological realm. In the realm I work in, ensoulment is eternal and individual life times are not. Choice is paramount on both the part of the child and the parents. The important operative is choice, but the consequences effect everyone. Abuse and betray a child that you not only conceived but brought to birth and you have made a very very big mistake.

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  30. It's odd that you associate an entire school of thought based in reason and humanitarianism with "hedonism." Is this because you don't know what hedonism means or is it just a symptom of something deeper?

    I take the old conservative saw about the country ("America, love it or leave it") and turn it on it's head, politically and ecclesiastically, "America (or church) love it or change it."

    Kallisti

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  31. "I take the old conservative saw about the country ("America, love it or leave it") and turn it on it's head, politically and ecclesiastically, "America (or church) love it or change it."

    Kallisti - I love this!

    I was going to say something about hedonism as well, but as it truthfully turns out to be the case for me is that I don't know what it is. Have to look it up. It means "the pursuit of pleasure; sensual self-indulgence." Oh, if only I made the time for such activity!!! Whoa! That would be heaven or a vacation which I have not had in twenty years!!

    So, dear Troll, pray tell us that you are bearing false witness against us, because you don't know the truth or what the heck you are talking about, really, in truth and fact.

    I think that Jasper is hedonistic, because Jasper only comes here in "pursuit of pleasure; sensual self-indulgence."

    If you think that witnessing the Church fall apart, its Priests sexually molesting children, its Pope declaring falseness as truth, reading your asinine and rude comments about gays is for our hedonistic pleasure you are not dealing with a full deck and should get some psychiatric care.

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  32. This discussion began with the problem of gay suicides and the response of the Church. Recent news accounts tell of some young gay men being murdered and others committing suicide. Colleen argued for compassion over contempt because current Church policy may be part of the problem.

    Then Jasper came to call us names and say we are the cancer that should be cut from the church.

    There you have it. It is a pretty stark choice.

    p2p

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