Saturday, May 29, 2010

An Interview With Archbishop Gomez Of LA.

In LA it's the return of the 'old' in the guise of the new.

The following is an interview with LA's newly installed Coadjutor Archbishop Gomez. He will toe the Opus Dei line even if he has to use copious amounts of double speak to make it look as if he isn't.

Archbishop Gomez analyzes future of Hispanics in US Catholic Church
Los Angeles, Calif., May 28, 2010 / 06:02 am (CNA).-

CNA: What is your own background?

Archbishop Gomez: I grew up in Monterrey, Mexico. My father was a medical doctor in Monterrey. My mother was raised in San Antonio, Texas, where she completed high school. She also went to college in Mexico City, and although she completed her course, my mother married my father instead of graduating. Education was always very important in my family.

I am both an American citizen and an immigrant, born and raised in Monterrey, Mexico. Some of my ancestors were in what’s now Texas, since 1805. (At that time it was still under Spanish rule.) I’ve always had family and friends on both sides of the border.

CNA: As the next Archbishop of Los Angeles, you will be the most prominent Hispanic prelate in the Catholic Church in the United States. What is your view of the state of Catholicism among U.S. Hispanics?

Gomez: The number of Hispanics self-identifying as Catholics has declined from nearly 100 percent in just two decades, while the number who describe themselves as Protestant has nearly doubled, and the number saying they have “no religion” has also doubled.
I’m not a big believer in polls about religious beliefs and practice. But in this case the polls reflect pastoral experience on the ground.

CNA: What questions do you see as key for Catholic ministry to U.S. Hispanics?

Gomez: As Hispanics become more and more successful, more and more assimilated into the American mainstream, will they keep the faith? Will they stay Catholic or will they drift away—to Protestant denominations, to some variety of vague spirituality, or to no religion at all?
Will they live by the Church’s teachings and promote and defend these teachings in the public square? Or will their Catholicism simply become a kind of “cultural” background, a personality trait, a part of their upbringing that shapes their perspective on the world but compels no allegiance or devotion to the Church? Hispanic ministry should mean only one thing—bringing Hispanic people to the encounter with Jesus Christ in his Church. (Always the addendum about the Church and allegiance to it as equal to faith in Christ.)
All our pastoral plans and programs presume that we are trying to serve Christ and his Gospel. But we can no longer simply presume Christ. We must make sure we are proclaiming him.
We should thank God every day many times for the good things we have been given. But we also need to give thanks to God through service, through works of mercy and love.

CNA: What is the most serious problem Hispanic Catholics face in the U.S.?

Gomez: The dominant culture in the United States, which is aggressively, even militantly secularized. This is a subject that unfortunately doesn’t get much attention at all in discussions about the future of Hispanic ministry. But it’s time that we change that.
“Practical atheism” has become the de facto state religion in America. The price of participation in our economic, political, and social life is that we essentially have to agree to conduct ourselves as if God does not exist. Religion in the U.S. is something we do on Sundays or in our families,
but is not allowed to have any influence on what we do the rest of the week. (Not true at all. Official religious leaders are not to use their positions to directly influence government. Big difference.)
This is all very strange for a country that was founded by Christians—in fact by Hispanic Catholics. Indeed, in San Antonio, the Gospel was being preached in Spanish and Holy Mass was being celebrated by Hispanics before George Washington was born. (Some parts of the country were dominated by Spanish Catholicism, others by French Catholicism, and others by the Protestant reformation. The US is a big country without the homogeneity of Mexico or Spain--or their influence by elitist monarchists and their clergy counterparts.)

CNA: You have said these secularizing forces put even more pressure on Hispanics and other immigrant groups. Why?

Gomez: Because immigrants already face severe demands to “fit in,” to downplay what is culturally and religiously distinct about them; to prove that they are “real” Americans, too. We might feel subtle pressures to blend in, to assimilate, to downplay our heritage and our distinctive identities as Catholics and Hispanics.

I believe that in God’s plan, the new Hispanic presence is to advance our country’s spiritual renewal. To restore the promise of America’s youth. In this renewed encounter with Hispanic faith and culture, I believe God wants America to rediscover values it has lost sight of—the importance of religion, family, friendship, community, and the culture of life.

CNA: What are other challenges facing Hispanics in the U.S.?

Gomez: In our Hispanic ministries, we must understand that we are preaching the Good News to the poor. The second and third generation of Hispanics are much better educated, much more fluent in the dominant language, and are living at a higher economic standard of living than the first generation.
But still about one-quarter of all Hispanics, no matter what generation, are living below the poverty line. Combine that with high school drop-out rates of about 22 percent, and a dramatic rise in the number of Hispanic children being raised in single-parent homes—both strong indicators of future poverty—and I worry that we may be ministering to a permanent Hispanic underclass.
We have moral and social problems too. Our people have some of the highest rates of teen pregnancy, abortion, and out-of-wedlock births, of any ethnic group in the country. These are things we don’t talk about enough. But we cannot write these issues off as just “conservative issues.” (These statistics are mirrored in the religiously conservative protestant South. Think there might be a message here?)

To my mind, these are serious “justice” issues. If we want justice for our young people, if we want what God wants for them, then we need to find ways to teach our young people virtue, self-discipline, and personal responsibility. (Birth Control and legitimate sex education would help and they too can be considered a personally responsible decisions.)

CNA: What do you tell Latino leaders?

Gomez: Don’t be intimidated by the truths of our faith. They are a gift from God. Let these truths touch your heart and change your life.
You should own copies of the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church. If you spend a few minutes each day reading these books and also reading from the Gospel, you will notice a change. You will look at the world and your own lives with new eyes.
“Be proud of your heritage! Deepen your sense of your Hispanic identity, the traditions and customs of our ancestors!” I tell them. “But you are Catholics. And ‘catholic’ means universal. That means you can’t define yourself —nor can you let society define you—solely by your ethnic identity. You are called to be leaders—not only in the Hispanic community, but in every area of our culture and society.”
As Catholic leaders and as Hispanics, we must reclaim this culture for God.
Being a leader means, first of all, accepting Jesus Christ as the ruler of your life. The martyrs of Mexico all lived—and died—with these words on their lips: Viva Cristo Rey! (“May Christ the King live!”) To be true leaders, the living Christ must be your king. ( Wow, just a tad bit of monarchist thinking in these statements.)

CNA: What is the role of the Church in the political debate over immigration?

Gomez: The Church is not a political party or interest group. It is not the Church’s primary task to fight political battles or to be engaged in debates over specific policies. This task belongs to the laity. (Oh my, you could have fooled me. Was the USCCB involvement in health care just my own personal delusion?)
The Church’s interest in immigration is not a recent development. It doesn’t grow out of any political or partisan agenda. No. It is a part of our original religious identity as Catholics, as Christians. We must defend the immigrant if we are to be worthy of the name Catholic.
For bishops and priests, our job as pastors is to help form our peoples’ consciences, especially those who work in the business community and in government. We need to instill in our people a greater sense of their civic duty to work for reforms in a system that denies human dignity to so many.
(Does this include non Catholic immigrants and gay immigrants?)
While we forcefully defend the rights of immigrants, we must also remind them of their duties under Catholic social teaching. Chief among these duties is the obligation to respect the laws of their new country.
We need to help ensure that these newcomers become true Americans while preserving their own distinctive identity and culture, in which religion, family, friendship, community, and the culture of life are important values.
I’m not a politician. I’m a pastor of souls. And as a pastor I believe the situation that’s developed today is bad for the souls of Americans. There is too much anger. Too much resentment. Too much fear. Too much hate. It’s eating people up.
In this volatile debate, the Church must be a voice of compassion, reason, and moral principle.
The Church has an important role to play in promoting forgiveness and reconciliation on this issue. We must work so that justice and mercy, not anger and resentment, are the motives behind our response to illegal immigration.

CNA: How should Catholics respond to immigration?

Gomez: Unfortunately anti-immigrant sentiment and anti-Hispanic bias is a problem today, even among our fellow Catholics. I don’t want to over-dramatize the situation. But we do need to be honest and recognize that racial prejudice is a driving factor behind a lot of our political conversation about immigration.
In the bitter debates of recent years, I have been alarmed by the indifference of so many of our people to Catholic teaching and to the concrete demands of Christian charity.
It is not only the racism, xenophobia, and scapegoating. These are signs of a more troubling reality. Many of our Catholic people no longer see the foreigners sojourning among them as brothers and sisters. To listen to the rhetoric in the U.S. and elsewhere it is as if the immigrant is not a person, but only a thief or a terrorist or a simple work-animal.
We can never forget that Jesus himself and his family were migrants. They were forced into Egypt by the bad policies of a bad government. This was to show us Christ’s solidarity with refugees, displaced persons, and immigrants—in every time and in every place.
We all know these words of Jesus: “For I was a stranger and you welcomed me . . . As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me” (Matt. 25:35, 40). We need to restore the truth that the love of God and the love of neighbor have been forever joined in the teaching—and in the person—of Jesus Christ.
Many of these new laws on immigration are harsh and punitive. The law should not be used to scare people, to invade their homes and work-sites, to break up families.
I would like to see a moratorium on new state and local legislation. And, as the U.S. bishops recently called for, I would like to see an end to federal work-site enforcement raids.
The bottom line is that as long as workers can earn more in one hour in the U.S. than they can earn in a day or a week in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America, they will continue to migrate to this country. Immigration has to do with peoples’ rights to share in the goods they need to secure their livelihoods. (The problem with this policy is the employers are let off free to hire more illegals and have the government break up even more families.)
We need to come together and find a solution to the complicated economic, national security, and legal issues raised by immigration. (Maybe you could also add a comment or two about the inherent injustice in the predominately Catholic countries from which all these illegal immigrants are coming.)

CNA: But how would you respond to those angered by illegal immigration? Shouldn’t those in the country illegally face punishment?

Gomez: As we stress the Church’s moral principles, we need to be more sensitive to people’s fears. The opponents of immigration are also people of faith.
They are afraid. And their fears are legitimate.
The fact is that millions of immigrants are here in blatant violation of U.S. law. This makes law-abiding Americans angry. And it should.
We have to make sure that our laws are fair and understandable. At the same time, we have to insist that our laws be respected and enforced. Those who violate our laws have to be punished.
The question is how? What punishments are proper and just? I think, from a moral standpoint, we’re forced to conclude that deporting immigrants who break our laws is too severe a penalty.
Now, this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t enforce the laws. It means we need to find more suitable penalties. I would suggest that intensive, long-term community service would be a far more constructive solution than deportation. This would build communities rather than tear them apart. And it would serve to better integrate the immigrants into the social and moral fabric of America. (And yet again the Archbishop does not deal with accountability for employers nor the social justice problems in the countries of origin.)


Readers of this blog probably know that I strongly support immigration reform and am vehemently opposed to SB 1070 recently passed in Arizona. One of the reasons I am opposed to that bill is precisely because many Hispanic and Indigenous families have been in this area far longer than white protestant families have been in New England. It is at heart racist in it's implications. No different than the Irish laws of the 1800's.

What irritates me about Archbishop Gomez is his silence on addressing this massive immigration at it's cause, and that's the social injustice and oppression in the Catholic countries south of our border. What he is essentially proposing as a solution to poverty in the southern hemisphere is not social and economic change in those countries, but the helter skelter relocation of their poor to the North to be used as cheap labor for US employers and apparently kept that way by Catholic teaching about 'obedience to rulers' and sexual morality. The opposition to this plan is the US educational system which does not place a high value on mindless obedience and a US culture that considers sex education, female equality, and access to birth control critical components of a responsible sexual ethic--or in Vatican speak, secular relativism.

I am not impressed with any immigration plan which does not place a high priority on dealing with the issues at the source of the problem. The source of this problem is not a leaky US border with Mexico or poor US immigration law. To pretend that's the source of the problem is plain disingenuous.

As to the rest of this interview, I feel for LA Catholics. Archbishop Gomez could very well be an Hispanic version of Cardinal McIntyre with a more polished pastoral face.


  1. Sorry Bishop.

    This issue of immigration along the US/Mex border is a microcosm of worldwide poverty. Where the differences in wealth are small there isn't much concern about illegal immigration, for example along the Can/Am border.

    Colleen, you're absolutely right to address the issue of social injustice and poverty in Latin America.

    Gomez needs to reflect on his own words:

    "The bottom line is that as long as workers can earn more in one hour in the U.S. than they can earn in a day or a week in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America, they will continue to migrate to this country."

    The sub-minimum wage, illegal worker hasn't been identified for what he is: a modern peon, pauper, serf, even slave. Poverty, penury, pauperism, homelessness, slavery. There I've said it.

    Before anyone criticizes me consider the statistics on this well documented linked page:

    "Almost half the world — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day...

    ...At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day."

    Let's see...

    Jesus was quite specific about the poor. Even the obtuse UCCB knows this;

    "It’s time to end poverty in America once and for all. The Catholic Campaign for Human Development (CCHD) invests in community-based solutions — that know no racial or religious boundaries. We support self-sufficiency and self-determination as the best strategies for change. We support projects that break the cycle of poverty for good. "

    There you go! Get on it Bishop.


    The word verification ghost says: belli

  2. Gomez: "Religion in the U.S. is something we do on Sundays or in our families, but is not allowed to have any influence on what we do the rest of the week."

    What "U.S." is he talking about, I wonder? In what other developed country is public life more influenced by people's religious beliefs?

    I always shaked my head when I hear people complain about secularism. What alternative do they have in mind?

  3. I haven't time to read the entire blog here yet. I will comment on one thing though that strikes me as central to the problem in the Church's teachings by Gomez.

    "(Always the addendum about the Church and allegiance to it as equal to faith in Christ.)"

    That is the problem - the Church's narcissism and not being centered in Christ teachings, but centered in its own teachings which are flawed and have become Pharisaic.

    I'll be back later to read the entire blog and maybe comment again.

  4. @PrickliestPear

    Yeah the Church is really thriving in the theocracies like Saudi Arabia, and where religion plays a predominant role in everyday life like, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan.


  5. p2p -

    Good point: we do not see thousands of Canadians sneaking into the US daily seeking to become migrant farm workers:p

    As the US has VERY direct & verifiable guilt & responsibility for its Fiefdoms in Latin America - where it has intentionally institutionalized poverty so the US can live off the fat of the land South of the Border.......we have a moral obligation to feed & help these Latinos.

    It is also equally true AND verifiable that Opus Dei (and it many ancillaries & corporate predecessors.....) have worked hand-in-glove to rape the land of Latin America to fill their coffers. With vast quantities of raw materials, agrticultural products, and virtual slave labor in factories of US firms down there. Opus is also VERY guilty for supporting the various Fascist regimes which have enabled this. Brutally beating down all legitimate protest & opposition.

    ...and subjugating the Latin ppls to the 'Church' as its de facto Viceroy & plantation master. Using spiritual/psychological deception to enforce obedience to Church + State. Using damnation & excommunication as threats. And death squads as enforcers.

    Opus Dei, working in conjunction with the US govt. & the CIA has the blood of untold masses on their paws. Yet they dare to claim to represent Christ.

    Mahoney was no prize; while seeming 'liberal' he very much collaborated with the Opus. Most do not or will not see this. But it is just as true of Chicago's Bernardin. They will use the 'Left' when it serves their all is not as it seems.

    If this were not true, then Bernardin & Mahoney would have shared the fate of Oscar Romero. Count on it.

    The illegal immigration issue is a Strategy of Tension. The dynamics which fueled the migration were used intentionally. Those who have any cognizance of urban Catholic history over the last 50+ years, know full well that priests enabled the illegal immigration.

    While it may be true that the occasional individual priest did really care about them, as of the mind of Christ - there was an agenda at work. It had nothing to do with any legitimate & altruistic 'concern for the poor'.

    The Latinos were merely useful pawns. Political toys. You must steel yourself & think in these terms to understand. This has nothing to do with living the Gospel. And everything to do with a long term agenda.

    No man becomes a bishop if he is not a 'company man'. Eject any pious illusions; these men were selected ONLY for their acting ability. Facilitators.

    How else can you explain bishops who loves Latino immigrants,and others who support Sherrif Arrapaio? They 'care so much' for the unborn, yet do not give a damn about the poor?

    They are playing a game; and you are the chess pieces.

    Anon Y. Mouse

  6. Let's remember that Hispanic does not just mean Mexican. Individuals from Puerto Rico, for example, are US citizens already. And many people come from Latin America or the Iberian peninsula in Europe. There isn't "one" culture! They even speak Spanish differently. Mexicans mix their Catholicism with indigenous spirituality - even if that's not evident to the casual observer.

    Just as the "church" is not the hierarchy - versus the laity, as this bishop tries to portray it, neither is there one "Hispanic" culture. Seems to me the "church" (read hierarchy) is "pushing" dogma on both spiritual and cultural fronts! Trying to define religion, culture and Hispanic as if they are one and the same!

    Full disclosure: I am married to a Hispanic from Europe. I have a son who lives in CA. Neither is Mexican. Neither goes to church. I doubt our family is unique.

  7. Colleen, excellent commentary in response to AB Gomez.

    Gomez said: "I would suggest that intensive, long-term community service would be a far more constructive solution than deportation."

    Gee, isn't this so nice and charitable of AB Gomez to persuade "intensive, long-term community service"? Doing what? Cleaning up garbage for nothing? Use them as slave labor? These people are not abused enough? They should work for nothing as punishment for being Mexican and coming into this country to work, because there is no work in Mexico.... and he ignores the problems in Mexico, as you say Colleen. So much for him being for the poor Mexicans.

    AB Gomez is fixated on Hispanic culture and not on Jesus Christ. As if that is what is so important to retain. He says he is not a politician, but he truly is a politician.

  8. "This is all very strange for a country that was founded by Christians—in fact by Hispanic Catholics."

    Amazing to make such a claim that this country "was founded by" "Hispanic Catholics."!!! News to me!!!

    He has a wealthy cadre of "Hispanics" who are "Catholic" businessmen, surely Opus Dei types and they are going to indoctrinate the poor to rather than assimilate into the great melting pot of this country, to a pseudo-Hispanic cult of sadomasochistic machos. First on the list to read is the Catechism, then the Church Doctrine.... lastly.... oh, the Gospels... Do they need the Gospels after they read the Catechism and Doctrine? Their consciences will be deformed to allegiance to the Mother Church (institution), but not to God and least of all to Jesus Christ.

  9. "That means you can’t define yourself —nor can you let society define you—solely by your ethnic identity."

    They cannot define themselves, or be defined by society..... just give that to AB Gomez and Opus Dei to define for them!!!

    Where is there God Given Free Will in AB Gomez & Opus Dei defining their identities, to use as political pawns and puppets?

    AB Gomez likes to play god.

  10. The problem with AB Gomez is he is too sure of himself. He does not have a holistic view of the USA as indicated by his own words. He is not for freedom of conscience as he has already indicated that the poor need their consciences formed for them... as if they did not have a God-given intellect to begin with.

    Jesus did not teach like that.

    AB Gomez needs to contemplate many issues with much more depth than in his own identity. I am not witnessing that he even believes in the Holy Spirit from what he has said.

  11. Colleen,

    Sorry to be off-topic but I wanted to bring this article to the attention of your blogging community. From the Toronto Star, an article by Mary Ormsby:

    Sex abuse victims say church is still tenaciously fighting claims

    "Even after convictions, some lawsuits have dragged on for more than a decade; church official blames complexities of judicial system

    The overall strategy for dealing with these civil cases rests with the Church. If they wanted to settle they could. If their lawyers advised them to be aggressive, or to drag it out, they could reject that advice. My parish priest once told me the whole diocese would be bankrupt if the claims against it had to be paid. That could be true. It happened to the Christian Brothers in Newfoundland in the aftermath of the infamous Mount Cashel Orphanage scandal.

    Another Sylvestre victim — the woman who’d had her psychiatric exam in Toronto cancelled — is in her fifth year of litigation. The woman said she’s seen the priest’s victims crumble after years on “an emotional roller coaster.”

    “They couldn’t eat, sleep, work, they couldn’t carry on in their personal relationships,” said the woman, whose trial date is in 2011.

    “There was so much anger in their lives and frustration. They just said ‘I want this done. I don’t care if I get $10, I just want this done.’ ”

    Swifter resolutions would be more humane for victims, said Connie Coatsworth, a counsellor who has treated between 15 and 20 adults sexually assaulted as children by Catholic clergy.

    “The longer (litigation) goes on, the harder it is for (patients) to heal,’’ said the Chatham therapist, who sees clients suffer under stresses related to lawsuits. “If (the church) truly wants healing for them, they need to expedite this process.”

    Caruso called the church’s conduct hypocritical because it boasts of pastoral outreach to victims yet treated him “like sh--.”

    “Their only concern is to piss you off and get you going and do everything they possibly can to deter you from suing them.”


    Is there a better way to bring this type of story here?

    Word verification ghost: forcep

    It has happened in Tucson, Spokane, Delaware, San Diego and elsewhere. But in some of those cases the filing for bankruptcy protection doesn't seem to be anything but a strategy to avoid paying the victims of child sexual abuse. Often, as in the case of San Diego the bankruptcy filing is made on the eve of the civil trials. (See: S.D. Catholic diocese files for bankruptcy)

  12. I have yet to run into an institution or corporate entity, who when they know they are clearly responsible for the charges brought against them, doesn't resort to every delay tactic in the legal book. It is designed to outlast the emotional energy of the victim and reduce liability. It is highly effective. It is also truly immoral in any meaningful spiritual, much less Christian, context.

    It's what we laity are ultimately paying diocesan lawyers to do to victims - in our name - as our bishops attempt to convince us this behavior is all to save our patrimony. Perhaps our bishops should have thought about 'our patrimony' before they started shuffling predatory priests through multiple parishes in 'their dioceses'.

    It's been fascinating to me to see how concepts of ownership change when money and accountability become factors. I also know what these strategies do to victims and that's not fascinating, that's sickening.

  13. Colleen,

    They have no excuse for delay where the priest has already been convicted. Begin the healing process.


  14. Colleen -

    You are correct about the legal 'delay tactic'. They (the bishops & their legal teams) know they have time & power on their side. They will play with the victim like a cat plays with a mouse. Hoping the victims will simply give up, go mad, or just die.

    Obviously this is completely incoherent with Christ & His Gospel.

    Yes, the parishioners are being made to pay the legal damages. Even though the average diocese has VAST resources, hiding under various seemingly un-connected corporate fronts. And then there are the off-shore accounts. Either of their own, or those held in trust for them by the Vatican and/or the various fiscal entities within the orbit of Opus Dei.

    The money is all one big 'shell game'. And they know & it use & abuse such systems & tactic intentionally.

    Money may be likened to Energy or Matter; which we know from the 'laws of Physics' cannot be destroyed. It is merely converted to a different form (an over-simplification, but run with it...).

    Of course if you own banks & other financial institutions (insurance, mortgage, brokerage...) you violate the laws of Physics referenced above, by creating MORE $$. Remember: modern banking/finance was NOT an 'invention of the Jews'. It was an invention of the Church, via such as the Knights Templar.

    If you know your history, you know that unbelievably incredible wealth was acquired by the Church over centuries. And that their current income alone is larger then the gross receipts of many nations or mega-corporations.

    So, what happened to all the wealth they had in the past? Did it vanish? Did the Commies steal it? Please.....let's get serious folks!

    Money can be converted into many forms: real estate, art works, govt. bonds, stocks, mutual funds, securities......hidden in front corporations, holding companies, & in many compartmentalized forms.

    Do you know how many corporations your diocese runs/owns/has majority ownership of? Did they sell that land...or 99 year lease it to themselves via a dummy corporation?
    Who actually owns the cathedral? Is there actually a corporation in your state for your diocese? Or is it a Delaware or Nevada corp? Or a foreign holding company? Who actually owns that nursing home?

    Most ppl have not even pondered the above, as it is beyond their comprehension. It is also 'forbidden thought', as it is indicating that there is something VERY wrong with the Church (organization):

    It is not merely that it is serving Mammon; it IS Mammon. On an objective look, there is no escaping this conclusion.

    Note: we speak here of the Vatican organization & administration; NOT of the core of the Catholic Faith!

    Anon Y. Mouse

  15. (cont) an example:

    Consider the famous Trinity Episcopal Church in Manhattan. It dates back to the mid 1600s. One of the oldest congregations in the US. The mother church of the NY Episcopalians. And certainly the wealthiest Protestant Church in NYC.

    Why? Due to large land grants given to the parish by the British monarchy - as NY was then a British colony - they have amazing wealth. Not just in endowments (which are big enough). But as they literally own much of the land in lower Manhattan, principally near the Wall Street financial district. They OWN office buildings, from which they derive $millions annually in rent.

    ...and that is what is public knowledge.

    You many be familiar with the church, as it is where the 'National Treasure' (of the Knights Templar) is hidden in the fictional film of same name.

    Now that is what one single, fairly small church happens to own, via a centuries old legacy. Owned & operated by the Trinity Real Estate Corp. (among other entities).

    What do you think your diocese owns/controls? Or Opus Dei - which took over the management of the Vatican's purse back in the early 80s?

    These are indeed very 'sinful structures'.

    Anon Y. Mouse

  16. p2p -

    In re: dioceses filing for bankruptcy protection....

    Obviously, this has nothing to do with "we have no money' and everything to do with "haha!!!".

    But in light of some of the details I have brought up, ask this question:

    WHAT filed for bankruptcy? You may answer 'the diocese'. The reality is that this is a paper shuffling act. "The diocese' is not a single corporate entity, in reality. And the truth of the matter is that they are simply allowing the VISIBLE corporate entity to go bankrupt. That's the beauty of the scheme.

    You want just recompense for your abuse & suffering? They have hidden all their cocoanuts where you cannot find them. They pretend to turn their pockets out in mock sorrow & poverty.

    ...while in reality they will continue to dine of 5* meals, on fine china & silver, as the victims cry themselves to sleep.

    The classic 'shell game' is played with halved cocoanut shells. They have simply made it harder to find the prize.

    And ppl scoff at my words for saying they serve Satan? Very well.....

    Anon Y. Mouse

  17. @ Mouse

    No doubt assets can, and have been, hidden. It doesn't require any conspiracy theory at all.

    On sinful structures: It was my disgust upon learning the truth about the Legion of Christ that brought me here. Many faithful foot soldiers were living in poverty while the fruits of their labor and the savings of their parents went to make the order immensely wealthy and enabled Maciel and others.


  18. p2p -

    While I believe you to be sincere, you are not grasping the central point:

    Jesus Christ did not found a global, hierarchic, hegemonic Theocracy, misusing His Holy Name as pretext to greed & power.

    As a compilation from the four Canonical Gospels, THIS is what He told them to do - the correct mode in which to Evangelize by personal example:

    "...take with you neither gold, nor silver, nor coin, nor scrip, nor purse, nor bread, nor shoes (only the rich owned shoes; the common man wore sandals, as did Jesus), nor two coats (who could afford two in those days? Only the rich...), for the what you are given, accept the hospitality of he who invites you to rest in his house......keep nothing for yourselves.....that which you are given, give all to they who need.."

    Until the Council of Nicea, the 'Church' operated in this mode. After Nicea it rejected the mode of the Gospel for Mammon.

    Opus Dei & the Legion of merely modern manifestations of the 'spirit' which has animated the Vatican since Nicea. On steroids.

    Those clerics & lay who truly believe in Christ & tried to LIVE the Gospel have been very few in each century.

    The penultimate 'conspiracy' is that the Devil exists, tempts Man, & succeeds frequently. The Vatican is his prize & joy.

    Anon Y. Mouse

  19. @ Mouse

    Don't worry. I am sincere and I did get the central point the first time.

    The personal example point is excellent.