Saturday, May 15, 2010

Seems to be a conspicuous lack of women anywhere near Benedict. I often wonder how men would feel if everything were reversed. Would it bother them that in their professed religious truth, no men would appear in this photo, at least none dressed in clerical clothing---and that these visuals would be repeated endlessly.

It's dialogue or death, pope says in Portugal
by John L Allen Jr on May. 14, 2010

In a strong missionary appeal coupled with a call for dialogue, Pope Benedict XVI today urged his flock to resist the lure of a sort of “ghetto Catholicism,” closed in on itself.

“We have to overcome the temptation to limit ourselves to what we already have, or think we have, that’s securely ours,” the pope said.

"That would be a slow death."

Benedict XVI made those comments during an open-air Mass in Porto, an urban area of roughly two million in northern Portugal.

Benedict seemed almost impatient to get things moving, saying that Christ’s comforting words about being with the church to the end of time “do not excuse us from going out to meet others.”
“How much time has been lost, how much work has been delayed, because of carelessness on this point!” he said.

As he has throughout his four-day trip, Benedict stressed the need for dialogue with those outside the Catholic fold.

“Today the church is called to face new challenges, and is ready to dialogue with different religions and cultures, seeking to construct the peaceful co-existence of peoples with every person of good will.” (Co-existence is a far cry from some of what Benedict has written in the past where his 'dialogue' was about conversion to the true faith and the deficiencies of other religions in terms of TRUTH.)

Benedict also suggested that the style of missionary effort called for can be expressed in the following phrase: “We impose nothing, but we always propose.” (Does this mean calling off all the political crusades? Or does proposing include political agitation?)

Offering Christ as the key to human life, the pope argued, represents Christianity’s primary contribution to the great social challenges of the 21st century. (Maybe we should start pointing to teachings of Christ as the key to the expansion of human consciousness and offer that this the goal of human life and Jesus's call to love.)

“Facing the enormous problems of development of peoples that almost drives us to despair and surrender,” he said, Christians know that the only firm basis upon which to build a better future is the promise of Christ. (Except Jesus said to look within and spoke frequently of the need for a conversion to a love based culture, rejecting a power based culture.)

Despite chilly and rainy weather this morning, an estimated 200,000 people flocked to Pope Benedict’s Mass in the Grand Piazza of Avenida dos Aliados of Porto. The tightly-packed crowd filled the square and flowed down adjacent streets. Assistance was offered by young volunteers clad in orange t-shirts reading “Papa Team.”........

* * *If one were to hand out a prize for the most visible Catholic movement throughout Pope Benedict’s four-day trip to Portugal, it would almost certainly go to the Neocatechumenal Way. Founded in Madrid in 1964 by Spanish laypersons Kiko Arguello and Carmen Hernandez, the movement claims some 1 million followers around the world.

The Neocatechumenate has been embraced by many church leaders around the world for its ability to stir passion among converts to the faith, especially among the young, and for its effective pastoral work with Latino/a Catholics. It has also been a lightning rod, however, for its distinctive liturgical practices, and for the movement’s allegedly divisive impact on some of the parishes and dioceses where it’s present. (Three frequent charges against these lay movements, especially those founded by Spaniards or heavily influenced by a particular Spanish mindset, is their divisive impact in parishes, their penchant to present themselves as a sort of elite uber Catholic, and their cult like recruiting and ritual practices.)

Neocatechumenate banners have dotted the crowds at Benedict’s Masses, and it’s been hard to move around the margins of papal events without encountering small groups of Neocatechumenate members singing and celebrating.

That’s not because the Neocatechumenate is unusually prominent in Portugal, but rather because the movement is staging a massive “European Youth Vocational Meeting” in Fatima today, piggy-backing on the papal trip to attract Catholic youth from across the continent. The rally is being held in the piazza facing the main shrine in Fatima, the same space where Benedict XVI yesterday celebrated an open-air Mass. (C'mon John, Neo Cats always bus in loads of followers to any major Church gathering in Europe. They are a Tea Party organisers dream group.)

Though Neocatechumenate members were not on hand yesterday evening to hear Benedict XVI address the bishops of Portugal, his message would be of keen interest to them and to other “new movements” in the church.

In his address, the pope praised the flowering of new lay movements and religious orders, which he said have grown up precisely in a moment in which many refer to a “winter of the church.”

At the same time, Benedict insisted that new movements and communities have to accept the “common faith of the church,” work in collaboration with other Catholic groups and institutions, and accept the authority of their pastors and bishops.


I wonder if this is another series of speeches in which Benedict is attempting to herd both ends into the middle. I'm having trouble trying to digest how he can do this when he has spent the past thirty years supporting the traditionalist end against the middle and silencing the progressive end.

In that process he and John Paul enabled the creation and fostered the spread of the excessive zeal and 'ghetto mentality' of the new groups he is now having to reign in. The Legion is just the most obvious example of one of these new groups that was allowed, if not fostered, to get out of control for the sake of spreading the Reform of the Reform. Now Benedict is in the unenviable position of attempting to reform the reform of the reformers. The trouble is all these new lay apostolates are in love with their status as Papal favorites, the 'purity' of their message, and their specific version of Catholic identity. The rest of us are at best 'wannabe's', Episcopalians lacking the courage to convert, or at worst, heretics. Kind of hard to dialogue when the other parties are convinced they hold all the high ground and have been copiously rewarded for their view for three decades.

There is one other place where Benedict is going to run into a brick wall and it's one that effects an enormous number of Catholic doctrines. When he states: "We know Jesus is the one we are all awaiting." he seems to be referencing a literal second coming in which Jesus appears and rights all wrongs. Catholics then place their hope for mankind in this literal second coming.

I happen to think Jesus literally meant it when He said the Kingdom is found with in you. It is in the process of delving the depths of ourselves for the truths to be found there that we transcend our notions of ego and our ideas about consciousness and three dimensional reality. We find Jesus there, in that timeless and space less reality with in us, pushing us to be all we can be, to go where few humans have gone before. All spiritual systems teach this to some degree or another. As long as Catholicism as a religion, is dependent on external expressions of relationship to the divinity, it will continue to miss the true spiritual message. Jesus is not found exclusively in the Temple, He is found powerfully and truthfully inside each and everyone of us. There in lies the true hope for mankind.


  1. Another excellent article. I never heard of the Neocatechumens? Are they a mainstream group? I agree with you that our faith needs to be more Christ centered.

  2. Such a true statement Colleen: "Now Benedict is in the unenviable position of attempting to reform the reform of the reformers."

    This is a statement and a half by Benedict:

    “Today the church is called to face new challenges, and is ready to dialogue with different religions and cultures, seeking to construct the peaceful co-existence of peoples with every person of good will.”

    What dialogue is the church having, or Benedict having with different religions and cultures? My knee jerk reaction is that the only "dialogue" from Benedict and his Opus Dei types he has surrounded himself with, are with those he feels most comfortable with, SSPXers, gay bashers, misogynists, and who believe as he believes. That's not really dialogue, that is a party, a tea party.

    Oh, and if you don't agree with Benedict or Opus Dei types, such are labeled not of good will?

    Some dialogue the Pope had with the women religious in Rome this past week, huh?!!

  3. Butterfly, what is it with telling people they are in a bad will? I have had people tell me that on another site and also tell me that I was not one of the "faithful." I did get an apology once, a man said that he was sorry if I was offended by what he said in charity. Talking to right-wing people has made me lean more to the progressive side although I am not sure that this is what these people have in mind when they engage me in discussion.

  4. Mareczku--try this link for some past posts on spiritual development. It may help answer your question about 'bad will'.

  5. Outstanding.

    @ butterfly

    Hmmm... I guess I missed that meeting the Vatican had with the women. Nothing in the schedule, just like the pope.

    @ Mareczku

    Some of the right wing Catholics are absolutely impossible to deal with. It is shameful how they attempt to shout down any kind of dissent and condemn those who question as heretics.

    I'm relatively new here at EC. It has become my favorite blog recently.


    Love this word verification:


    I think this is what Mareczku and I have in common. We're in the state of being nubies here, nubiesia

  6. Here is the new Catholic Ghetto - a ghetto of youth turned against their elders deemed "unworthy" to even have dialogue with, the "progressive" wing of the Church. The Neocatechumenate Youth Movement of Catholic bigots bused in from afar, beyond Babylon.

    There is way too much from this Pope Benedict & the wingnuts to turn my stomach.

  7. p2p, I am not too much of a nubie as I have been here for a while through Open Tabernacle but I did just sign on as a follwer last week so I suppose I am new in that sense. Today it seems that I am on a roll with comments.

  8. What month was that, Colleen? I will check out your archives. Thanks.

  9. Benedict is right in saying that "the church is called to face new challenges" - His world view ideology & psychology though does not bring us to Christ. It aligns the Church with the immature, spiritually & politically naive, as well as the evil elements, and that is why in their immaturity they would say that their "truth" was "charity" in condemning you.

    I was just reading Stephen's Discourses, Acts 7 1-60

    About the RCC desiring to go back in time and do as the medievals do, a desire to bring back the pomp and circumstance to the Church and give absolute authority to the Prince's of the Church, here is what St Stephen said that speaks the Gospel truth about what God thought about big glorious and pompous houses, houses of worship

    49 The heavens are my throne,
    the earth is my footstool.
    What kind of house can you build for me?
    says the Lord,
    or what is to be my resting place?
    50 Did not my hand make all these things?

    51 You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always oppose the Holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors. 52Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They put to death those who foretold the coming of the righteous one, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become. You received the law as transmitted by angels, but you did not observe it."

  10. Butterfly -

    When you refer to 'Neo-Cats bussed in' for these Papal road shows, you speak truth. The same applies to the hoards bussed in of Communion & Liberation, Focolare, The Legion of Christ/Regnum Christi, etc. - as well as members of Opus Dei (literal or 'closeted')

    How else can you explain obviously African faces in the crowd? OR so many young & fanatical papists?

    Let's be serious: almost none of these mobs were there to worship God in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass: they were there to worship Josef Alois Ratzinger.

    Look at it VERY objectively, as if you were a visitor from another planet. There would be no visual cues that an unseen God was being worshipped. But hundreds of cues that the short man wearing the pointy hat was the object of the adoration & worship of the mobs.

    Also, such a visitor would conclude that his power must be that of a combination of wizard as well as of wielding vast political power & leadership. Due to the none-too-subtle juxtaposition of the 'stage' right in from of the seat of government of Porto. And the veneration of his person by secular civic leaders - who were obviously in a submissive AND subservient status to him.

    That message was very strong.....

    As to 'no women', I would suggest looking more closely; as women were used both as altar servers, eucharistic ministers, lectors, etc. I am not saying this to defend Ratz; just to point out reality. At the same time I know all too well of the Vatican as the 'women-hater's club'. Conditioning generations of women to the virtual 'Ministry of Toilet Cleaning' as the only Divinely approved way for them. And of 'keeping the sanctuary free from the pollution of menses' (as I have literally heard some priests say, in person).

    I would also suggest - in all charity - that there are far more important things to worry about now, then any considerations of ordaining women. That is NOT in any way to be misconstrued as a prejudice, etc. It is a matter of critical & very urgent spiritual & material priorities.

    When the dam holding back the water is about to burst, flood thousands of acres, obliterating the homes, businesses & possessions of vast numbers......and taking many of their is not the time to worry about who wears which hat.

    Please understand this in whatever frame of reference works for you. But Time is of the essence now.....

    Anon Y. Mouse

  11. Those who killed Stephen were the spiritually immature, the people in power in positions of authority. They refused to REPENT. They did not recognize the TRUTH that was being said to them. Then, as now, these right wing fascists in the RCC are on notice to REPENT.

  12. Colleen -

    Time does not now permit me a detailed analysis of all the (very carefully crafted) verbiage which issued forth from Mr. Ratzginer's pie-hole.

    But there was a central message: "...obey me...obey the church organization....we are your only hope....all who do not are the enemy...".

    There was also a thinly veiled call for a new Inquisition.....

    I suggest researching the concepts of backmasking, reverse speech, & multi-level subliminals.

    Anon Y. Mouse

  13. Mouse, I am aware of a time factor... believe me. I made no mention about women priests or worrying about who wears a stupid looking hat.

  14. Butterfly -

    Your reference to those who killed Stephen is equally applicable to those who wanted to kill the woman caught in adultery. And is spot on.

    Not only spiritually immature, but grounded in fascism/fanaticism. This - and the Temple Masters who intentionally cultivated this to preserve their hegemony - were the ONLY ppl whom Jesus condemned. Repeatedly.

    ...and THEY are the ones who plotted against & killed Christ, enlisting the state to do the dirty work for them.

    Note that this 'spirit' was revived in the Council of Nicea. The immediate result was the wholesale slaughter of the Donatists. Thus, the birth what was later called the Inquisition.

    That which we call 'Opus Dei' was not invented in 1928; it is something very old. Recast in 'new wineskins', as it were. It was simply given a new corporate form. But it has always existed, lurking in the shadows. Usually without a name or singular organization.

    The INquisition is (falsely) claimed by Opus apologists to have been a 'secular entity'. This is an artfully crafted lie. We know from history that clerics conducted & supervised the horrid interrogations, torture sessions, forced confessions, & executions. It is really irrelevant whose hand held the branding iron.

    'The state' would have done NOTHING, if it were not at the behest of the Church. Conversely, the State was its obedient vassal.

    'Opus Dei' (and the many lay groups in its orbit...) works the same way. Secular & state elements are its willing 'vassals', called Cooperators or Collaborators. With the convenient layer of both secrecy & plausible denial.

    Again - its the same thing, recast in a new model.

    The Devil has no original ideas; he keeps presented the same a new guise.

    Anon Y. Mouse

  15. My post did not quite come out as I intended; specific items were aimed at Butterfly...and other items at folks in general.

    Take no offense Butterfly - that was not meant for you personally.

    The site is acting up - and not posting things as I proofread/correct them O.o

    Anon Y. Mouse

  16. New Ave Maria University dress code: no pants for women.

  17. I recognize the spirits Mouse. It really is not difficult to discern who is who in the big picture..., if one truly has a spiritual awakening from darkness and despair.

    If one walks in the light of Christ, one knows His voice. One is then empowered by His light & love and needs no earthly power over him/herself.

    People in power don't like to hear that sort of thing. It makes them less superior and less important.

  18. I see how this world is going to get itself in deep trouble and tribulation. We see how the forces are aligning together. It is an inquisition of the freedom, true freedom of religion and conscience. But those who declare an inquisition against "progressives" which is a loosely defined entity that is false witness against their neighbors, fraudulently, immaturely, disgracefully and arrogantly believe they are "righteous." They are the ones who said to Jesus that he had a devil in Him. They are the same spirits.

  19. p2p - "It is shameful how they attempt to shout down any kind of dissent and condemn those who question as heretics."

    It certainly is a mark of their spiritual immaturity when someone has a different perspective or point of view, they do not listen, but they will accuse you of being argumentative.

    Yet, they start the arguments and push every button to make sure they are heard and then you are told to shut up. It is an authoritarianism in them, and not Christianity or anything Christ-like that I can identify. They seem to always need a scapegoat. They twist the meaning of everything, because they are not able to listen, or hear.

  20. Mouse, I don't believe in the 640 some posts I've written I've ever written much about women's ordination. I do remember writing one about the sheer malevolence of excomunicating Fr. Roy Burgeios given the amount of dithering done for pedophile priests.

    I actually agree with you. I see very little point in adding women to a pychopathic clerical system. Not until the sacramental theolog and clerical sytem is completely revamped should side issues be introduced. At least in my humble opinion.

    I was basically musing to mostly myself about how simply tired I am of dealing with an all male clerical culture and it's patriarchal theology. I don't know that any woman can really ever explain just how tiring this all gets. Especially in view of how Jesus actually treated women.

    In other spiritual systems men appear to have the power, but they know and the women know who really has the talent, which is why almost all native men who do ceremonial ritual have a 'sit beside' who is always a woman, although not always a wife.

    I actually find the relationship between Kiko Arguello and Carmen Hernandez, the lay leadership of the Neo Cats, most interesting. It's the closest parallel Catholicism has at this point.

    I could go on about this subject of paired spiritual aptitudes, but will end with Francis and Clare. Where would the Franciscans be with out both of them?

  21. In my illness I have become more of a reader than a contributor here. I am too lethargic to bring the full magnitude of my knowledge of psychoanalytic thought to these writings right now. What I want to say is much more personal because it comes from my struggle as a human trying to deal internally with this mess and how to help a ten year old adopted sun navigate in his own pre adolescent thoughts the ethical theories that abound today. I depended on the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati way back then, and graduated to the Jesuits and Benedictines who later had powerful presences in my life. I think today it is the socially active nuns working so hard to love the poor and bring both some truth and justice to our world.

    I don't think that I am personally afraid of death, but what I fear is a world of deteriorating centers that operate ethically and help our children with their own mental development. I think there is evil in our world and it comes in the form of stinted mental development of people that are willing to use our children as cannon fodder for the next war of corporate supremacy or Church false belief in Episcopal omniscience. You see I had so many very good mentors, and I see so many mentors who were in positions of giving our youth true help in their navigation through this difficult but exciting sea of adolescence and growth into decent ethical young men and women, excluded from academic and sociologic positions to be of any help.

    I once suggested to a very disturbed young mother that it was mother's job to be just a little bit better mother than her own mother. If she could accomplish that she should indeed be a good enough mother. I believe whole heartedly that the nutritive function of our Catholic institutions have been distorted by very weak leaders, pretending as adolescents often pretend in their over bearing acting out escapades to be strong people. I think our children and grand children deserve better. Society deserves better. I think that our mentors are being replaced by so much dogmatism that it is violently shaking the growth and development of our children and of our society. Good enough mentors may be hard to find in the context of spiritual guides.

    I do think that at least the Jesuits and Benedictines and others have left a path for mentors that are completely outside moral structure but none the less are much more ethical than are the "faith based institutions." I fear, however, that this martyring of man and woman power will rob from our children some of their needed ability to process and engage in the further stages of abstraction found deeply in the meanings of the metaphorical wrings of scripture and the every day writings of some of us common folk. Can I remain alive long enough to guide my son to these secular mentors? One thing certain I can guide him away from the misbehavior of clerical members of our society, but when something happens to me, will he be able to find his mentors?

    For me, small spirituality groups for prayer and meditation is the best. I really do not care the gender of the person calling the eucharist into our presence. For my young son and grand children, I fear an Opus Dei Bishop in LA. I fear the mental clarity of a Glen Beck (Catholic Bishop) in a high position. I fear the loss of an ethical society for our children. Yes, I am afraid of the evil men that are popping back into our world leadership, and for this reason, I fear my own personal death. Should we all have such fears? What can we do about them in our living present? What must we await the good sense of our own progeny’s abilities to figure out for themselves? Will they be creative enough thinkers to see other than the minds of the dogmatists and the evil of their misbehavior?

    May we gain grace in a positive struggle to allow the development of an ethical society and ethical kids. dennis
    wow what a ramble!

  22. @rdp46


    You are one of the reasons I'm here at EC.

    I read your comment and I've been staring out the window at the sunlight dancing on one particular tree. That tree is highlighted and the others surrounding are dark because of the way the early morning sun comes over the hill. It is quite beautiful. We don't get much time in the sun do we? Some less than others. And it just isn't fair that some of us have disease while others do not.

    About 10 years ago I got a life changing diagnosis. I'm grateful I'm still around and still able to do most of what I want to do. When I was first diagnosed nothing bothered me more than those issues you've raised. I wondered if I'd live long enough for my baby daughter to know and remember me.

    I too have had some very good mentors in the Catholic school system. My wife and I come from rather large families and I've been blessed with some very good friends. I decided to call on some of the people I knew and ask each of them to fulfill a specific role I had for them in relation to my child.

    We chose two sets of godparents. All four are fine people but I told each person what I expected of them. The one godfather, a streetwise Sicilian, is to be available for counsel on all material matters and to ensure she is not tricked or trapped by her own naiveté. He's not mafia, in case you're wondering about the stereotypical Sicilian godfather. He's direct, some would say blunt, and outspoken about right and wrong and will not allow injustice to stand. I feel that a girl without a brother needs to feel some security and protection of the type he can provide. One of the godmothers is the most beautiful spiritual earthmother you can imagine. A truly engaging person, intimate, open, always brings out the best in other people. Everyone she knows seeks her out on matters of the heart. She is the most beautifully spiritual person I have ever met and she'd make the most fabulous Catholic priest, if... being a Master of Divinity meant more than possessing testicles.

    Each of my siblings is entrusted with specific tasks as are Mrs. p2p's siblings. Even the cousins old enough to understand have been told I'm relying on them to take care, watch out, support, encourage, or simply to make sure that they call every birthday and holiday so Jr. will never be alone at a time of celebration.

    It is difficult for me to be appropriately grateful each day I've experienced beyond my expected "expiry date", but I am very grateful for the second opportunity.

    You are in my thoughts and prayers.


  23. rdp, you are in my prayers as well. You are crying from the depths and speaking for me, articulating both fears and faith, walking with the Lord through that dark valley. Thanks, and God's grace be with you.

    I don't know which battles to fight, either. The explosive charismatic faith experience of my youth has been transfigured into cultic indoctrination, an opiate for the people (Opiate Dei?) of great magnitude. I feel your fears for my kids, too.

    Right now, in our time of Pentecost, my hope is in the Spirit. My parish has instituted the Novena to the Holy Spirit, and yesterday we prayed for the gift of Fear. Not fear-of-the- Lord, not what is elsewhere described as "holy fear", but Fear. "Help me to shun all things that can offend You, and make me worthy to appear before the pure eyes of Your Divine Majesty in heaven..." It really makes me angry, leading people to fear, to the magic cultism, to saying the right words that open the magic door to God's acceptance.

    But I have faith in the Spirit, who led me from such simple beginnings to unimaginable faith, to leaving fear behind and trying to be selfless, to trying to understand and feel the cross. She will hear simple prayer, and She will lead. She must, for that grace is far beyond you and I. In my best moments, I quit trying to grasp it and simply count on it.

    I think this is truly why Jesus boiled things down to such simplicity for us. He says love each other and love God. He says let me wash your feet, and I can take you (dirt and all) to bliss. He says those who say they see remain blind, but that the blind can see.

    One more thing. I assume in your life as well as mine that God has taken chicken bleep and made chicken salad. I need to trust that for the rest of folks, too. I do see some of the most taken with the cult, the magic, become more selfless. I see their faith. If we can keep dialoguing (and I think that's the real battle, the learning to be together rather than splitting into sides), we will reflect the Love we've been taught.

    God bless.

  24. Dennis, it's funny sometimes how things work. I a very real way your comment inspired today's Spiritual Manifesto.

    I so understand your concern for your son. I made a concerted effort to trust that when my daughter was ready, the Spirit would provide the right mentors, if I couldn't. The last part of my prayer was probably the best part of my prayer because I would never have chosen some of the people who have served as her mentors. I would have made very big mistakes in rejecting them--and I thought I had good reasons for rejecting them. So much for human wisdom--even the best intended parental wisdom. :)

    I often tell people that if they can summon the trust, intent will work with Spirit and provide the best solutions. It's really an amazing process to observe and experience. It has nothing to do with luck, but everything to do with God's will for us all--randomness and bell curves still apply on our ego level, but not on the level of our highest selves and not on God's level. There's more to our reality than met Newton's and Descarte's eye.

    You have been in my prayers, mostly in gratitude though. Your comments have been a real treasure and I selfishly pray they continue into the long forseeable future.

  25. Excellent comment Colleen,

    Obviously I'm just not as spiritual as you. I have a lot to learn.

    Thanks creating and maintaining this wonderful forum for discussion.


  26. Dennis, it is so good to hear from you and to read the responses to you. I don't know if I can add anything except that you are very much loved, admired and respected.

  27. Butterfly -

    "People in power don't like to hear that sort of thing. It makes them less superior and less important."

    Very true - as is the rest of what you say! Of course "Holy Church" has a number of standard responses to what you say:

    1) 'a witch!'
    2) 'you need healing'
    3) 'this person is of the devil!'
    4) 'HERETIC!!!'
    5) 'an Exorcism is needed!'
    6) 'you are disordered'
    7) 'you need counseling'
    8) 'PROTESTANT!!'
    9) 'Bigot......anti-Catholic.....(etc.)'
    10) '....perhaps Fr. Benedict Groeschel can help you....'
    11) 'you need prayer'
    12) 'perhaps you need to go to Confession...'
    13) 'you are DISOBEDIENT!!!!!!!!!'
    14) 'You must repent of this'
    15) 'Perhaps the Archdiocesan pastoral office can help you with your spiritual dysfunction....(translation: MK-Ultra type personnel) get the idea:)

    Anon Y.Mouse

  28. Many thoughts here. I will keep it brief. Peace and blessings to all here. Mark

  29. Mouse, I am well aware of the names they love to call people, and so is Jesus aware, His Apostles are aware, the martyrs too are aware of their cruelty and ignorance and winterized frozen hearts. After all, the martyrs and prophets were killed by those who spoke such trash and evil against God's obedient servants.

    For if they loved Jesus they would not speak the way they do, nor judge the way they do, nor walk where they walk. They would be loving and not be instruments of death against the truly Faithful to God.

    When I read Hans Kung's History of the Catholic Church it became quite clear the baggage of evil since Constantine that the Church has accumulated has become more and more heavy a burden on God's people. I am glad you are pointing these things out. I remember discussion of this sort at NCR some time ago. There was a lot of name calling then and excuse after excuse for their pitifully disgraceful pathetic and downright evil comments from the blind being led by the blind.

  30. One more thing - they are taught to give the type of responses that you have listed Mouse. They are blindly and childishly "obedient" to their worldly handlers. They really are not taught to be obedient to God, but to be obedient to the "Pope."

  31. Butterfly -

    1) What is the name of Hans Kung's book on church history? I would like to read it.

    2) You make an excellent point: 'they' are trained (conditioned) to say those things, as they are taught that such responses are signs of their "obedience" to their controllers.

    I am using mind control type jargon, as that is what it is. Jesus did NOT teach or in any way induce mind control; the Church Administrators have. And are expert at it.

    Now my background is not in psychology, but there has been a generalized 'bait & switch' used, as you hint.

    They think they are being obedient to God - by being obedient to their controllers (Hierarchy). And to the pope himself. The hitch in the construct is that 'God' is actually an abstract concept within the construct itself; the Pope/Hierarchy are real.

    And it gets worse, as it would be very easy to cite, factually, that the Pope (& Hiearchy either literally, or by extension) 'God'.

    If I present myself to you as the personal representative of someone, with the power to 'speak in his name' AND to act in his name - hence having Power of Attorney - for all practical legal purposes, I am 'him'. In civil law, that is how things work. Thus my words & acts are at one with his; ARE his. There is no legal distinction, except in the very finest of semantics.

    The only legitimate legal disputation of this would be in establishing authorization for the Power of Attorney. Of course when you have (intentionally..) mistranslated/edited the authenticating document (Scripture),problem solved!

    The penultimate 'bait & switch'!

    Which prompts the primordial cry of the great Archangel Michael:

    "Quis Ut Deus?"

    (Who dares to claim to be like God? To presume to assert His authority, power, & attributes?)

  32. Anonymous, The name of the book is A Short History of the Catholic Church by Hans Kung. Are you Mouse? If you are, and I think you are, then what you have figured out already is in the book he wrote with particulars of the sordid affairs in the Vatican since Constantine.

    Kung also develops a really good sense of the early followers of Christ. I trust Hans Kung's writing. He is honest and sincere.

  33. Butterfly-

    Yes, I be da Mouse (Squeek!!!)

    And thank you....I will look for that book. I have read none of Kung's writings as of yet. But the more I look into what ppl say of him & his writings, the more I want to know what he has to say.

    Even the Wiki article makes his thinking worth exploration.

    Anon Y. Mouse