Tuesday, May 4, 2010

TAC Bishops Are Beginning To Think The Grass May Not Be GREENER On The Other Side Of The Tiber

It maybe the thought of giving up the 'Old Vicarage' is too much for Traditional Anglican clergy.

Thousands of Anglican churchgoers could cross over to Rome with Bishops.
By Martin Beckford - Telegraph .co.uk - 05/03/2010

Thousands of Anglican parishioners could convert to Catholicism after three leading traditionalist bishops told the Vatican they were ready to cross over to Rome.

Churchgoers in almost 300 parishes that disapprove of women priests may take advantage of Pope Benedict XVI’s offer to change denomination if their “flying bishops” lead the way.
However the Church of England is expected to make a last-ditch attempt to stop the disillusioned groups leaving, by offering them concessions over the introduction of female bishops. (Given today's climate in Catholicism this is kind of funny. The one thing we can say with certainty about sexually abusing priests is they were all male.)

As The Sunday Telegraph disclosed, the bishops of Fulham, Richborough and Ebbsfleet held a secret meeting with papal advisers last week to discuss plans for Anglicans to convert to the Roman Catholic Church en masse. (Secret meetings seem to be the one thing the Vatican does most. I would say does best, except they never stay secret and the Vatican never learns.)

At least one key member of the English Catholic church’s commission on the Anglican Ordinariate – the Pope’s move to allow Anglicans to enter into full communion with the Holy See while retaining some of their spiritual heritage – was in Rome at the same time.

The Church of England clergy who held talks with members of the powerful Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith are “flying bishops”, who provide “episcopal oversight” to parishes that cannot accept women priests.

If they cross the Tiber and the move is seen as successful, their parishioners are expected to follow suit eventually as it is not clear that the "flying bishops" would be replaced. There are 268 parishes under the care of the three bishops, with an average 50 lay members in each as well as hundreds of priests.

A leading Anglo-Catholic said: “If it all comes off, it will start off small but grow. On day one 30 or 40 priests will leave with some of their people. They’re the brave ones who set off into the unknown.” (It's more likely that these priests are the ones who are most assured they will take enough of their parish to support them in their accustomed manner. Hardly bravery.)

Anglican clergy who resign their priestly orders, even those who are married, could become Catholic priests under the terms of the unprecedented “poaching” offer made last year. (No, officially this is a generous ecumenical move.)

However not all of the traditionalists in the Church of England will cross over, as some will feel unable to accept the more rigid structure of the Catholic church or the power of the Pope.
In addition, many may be persuaded to stay in July when the General Synod, the Church of England’s governing body, holds a critical meeting to decide how to make the historic step of ordaining women bishops.

Detailed plans – due to be published this month – are unlikely to include substantial provisions for traditionalists who oppose female leadership in the church but Synod could alter the plans in order to prevent an exodus of Anglo-Catholics. (What the Synod has to decide is who is really using who in this situation in order to score points.)


Here's an excerpt from an article on the Times Online which truthfully states where the rubber will meet the road on the issue of Anglican clergy transferring to Rome:

The number who leave is not expected to be as great as had been feared. A recent conference at Pusey House, Oxford, on the Pope’s offer, regarded as “sheep-stealing” by some Anglicans, was told that traditionalists who sought communion with Rome were as likely to choose the usual route of full conversion as go to the Ordinariate.

The Rev Philip North, Team Rector of Old St Pancras, London, told the conference that the opportunities for mission would be reduced in the Ordinariate because “we have the furniture of the Church of England”, which occupied a legal and cultural role. (literally)

This was part of the nation’s self-understanding, responsible for whole communities.
According to the Church Times, clergy in the Ordinariate would have to be in secular employment because the Roman Catholic Church could not raise the money — £64,000 in the case of Father North in London — to keep them in a house and stipend. Father North said that the Ordinariate could become irrelevant: “If we reach a point where staying is not an option, then traditional conversion is far more likely to offer the kind of enrichment and ministry that we know now.” (Which means they will then be able to take over existing Catholic parishes with their rectories rather than rely on Traditional Anglicans to foot their bill.)

The success of the Ordinariate will depend on what happens as the legislation is debated and amended. Key to the process will be the code of practice to cater for opponents to women bishops. It will be voluntary but will have considerable “moral” force. (I suspect the key will be where the real estate option is better.)

Although it will not go as far as many want, a code of practice is likely to keep most Anglo-Catholics within the Church of England, given that if they left they would have to find secular employment to give them an income, as well as find a home for themselves, and their family if married.

Many Anglo-Catholics minister in areas of London such as Fulham and Kensington where property prices are high. At present they enjoy large vicarages and rectories, courtesy of the established Church. (so much for giving up all to follow their Lord and defend their version of the Apostolic tradition.)


I wish Rowan Williams would come out and say these so called Traditional Anglican bishops are as morally bankrupt as he said of their Irish Catholic counterparts. He could also point out the Vatican has been as morally bankrupt in their ecumenical opportunism, but of course he won't.

That's the nice thing about blogging from the margins with no real power. I have the freedom to call a spade a spade. This is starting to look more like a bunch of spiritually stagnant misogynists throwing a temper tantrum. When it comes to putting their money where their mouth is, compromise will be the better option than moral certitude. I'm sure we will be made to understand it's about supporting their dependent wives and children and that's the greater moral good.

My retort to that bit of moral reasoning is if your theology didn't make your wives so damn dependent you wouldn't have to compromise your 'moral' stance. OR.....is this really as much about losing your episcopal independence to Rome as it is your housing?


  1. In the end, I think that the grass will look greener if the Anglican misogynist stay where they are now.

    This move by the RCC to rob some sheeple and brand them with a RCC tatoo on their rears, unless you are totally off your rocker, can only been seen as a move by the Vatican to press on with their Opus Dei Church. The RCC Church should really change their name to the ODC.

    The ODC also stands for Omnipotently Dysfunctional Church that will OD on their hate campaigns against women and their twisted ideology and theology. A Church full of losers filled with anxiety about women in any position of power, even from the Holy Spirit, has sold out to the devil & it shall not stand.

    One gets better perspective from the margins, so I am glad you are there Colleen. I also enjoy that space and freedom.

  2. My view is this:

    1) Your comments are spot on:p

    2) What the Vatican wants is......hundreds of clones of the Rev. George William Rutler (and his fake Oxford accent).

    They want the conservative Anglicans, as they - like Rutler - dovetail very neatly into the "Opus Dei Church". All singing the party line. All howling against the bugaboos of Abortion & Homosexuality.

    ...just like George dearest.

    All very liturgically proper with loads of handsome young men surrounding them in the sanctuaries.

    ....just like George dearest.

    All having fine five-star meals in their rectories, surrounded with the glitterati or the worlds of money & (wannabe) intellectual crowd, who are all oh-so-impressed with themselves.....

    ...just like George dearest.

    All exuding & extolling the theology of Mammon - whilst privily claiming to have having a five minute conversation with Mother Theresa, thence privily to have 'known saints', and thus verily & privily to have 'worked with the poor'.....


    I don't think it meet & bounden to delve into the plentious & ribald English humour about Anglican choir boys who grow up to be Anglical priests.

    ....and then become Catholic priests.


    Anon Y Mouse

  3. Colleen -

    Here is George lecturing on 'Superficiality'. Which is somewhere between ironic & hysterical,considering the vain & superficial twit who is speaking:


    One should note the Masonic floor pattern he is standing one:)

    Quite appropriate for him - on many levels....

    Anon Y. Mouse

  4. Good ole Mother Angelica seems to have a circle in her Temple sanctuary which is loaded with Masonic symbolism. You used to be able to see it on the EWTN website, but now the photo which showed that floor pattern is gone. The floor masons came from Spain. Are you shocked?

  5. Interesting comments, Colleen. If I may assume most of your readers are Roman Catholic, perhaps it may be helpful from one who's "swam the Thames" and become an Anglo-Catholic to point out a couple of things.

    Bear in mind that the so-called TAC is a schismatic group that broke with official Anglicanism years ago. As for the 'Forward in Faith' group, nominally and cynically still fishing from the Anglican boat, these are two separate groups simultaneously being wooed by Rome. But both are extreme Anglo-Catholics.

    The vast majority of rank and file Anglo-Catholics either here in the US or in the UK are not going anywhere, and have never had any intention of defecting. They've made their peace with women priests and bishops, and furthermore, their clergy are not about to be 're-ordained' to make themselves "proper" Catholics. They already are ~ no matter how loudly Rome pontificates to the contrary. (Apostolicae Curae and other cynical political nonsense not withstanding).

    {Oddly cynical on Rome's part to give pope-ing ex-Anglican bishops the right to the insignia of a Catholic bishop, when these very bishop's orders have always been **utterly null and void** all along. Breathtaking chutzpah, imho.}

    These folks knocking on Rome's door like to loudly pretend they are the lone faithful remnant of pure Anglican Catholics, when in fact they are nothing of the sort, the only sort they are ... are extremists shamelessly disloyal to the Churches in which they made their ordination vows.

  6. Hateful old men too blind to see.

    Why does the RCC want to bring in the SPX holocaust deniers, the racists, the sexists, the anti-semites, the misogynists, the conservative rats jumping off every other sinking vessel in Christendom?

    Can't anyone do the math? Let's see if we were more inclusive in our decision making, were a bit more collegial, included more lay people in the college, listened to the hopes and dreams, the troubles and trials of the "Church", if we were to repent and resolve our failings of abuse and predatory sexuality would we lose fewer people? If we were to use the talents, I think that's a Biblical term, of the highly educated, the skills, the knowledge, the aptitudes of women and the laity in the decision making process, if we invited all to join in the celebration...

    Nah... there might be some feminists, some homosexuals, some scientists, some liberals, some people who believe in human rights, maybe even a few socialists in that crowd of 100 million. A smaller purer Church is preferable.

    Catholic means misfit doesn't it?


    * This comment is snark, contains no bad URL links, is the pure, unadulterated opinion of one p2p who is not under the influence of the grape.

  7. What, no comment from TheraP?

  8. Thanks Mouse for the link to Rutler's rant. What a rant!!

    He reminds me a little of Lyndon LaRouche, in that he knows what he is talking about, but damned if he really says anything at all that you might benefit from.

    There is a lot of projection going on in his little feuerer-like speech on superficiality. Rev. Rutler is perhaps one of the most superficial pastors I've heard in a while. He certainly offers no hope for anyone who might not agree with him. There is mention of Jesus from him as suffering, but Jesus is in the past and he does not pastor those he's speaking to or concerned at all about their being drawn closer to Christ at all. He's only concerned with making insulting and dehumanizing notions of the "reality" he sees.

    He doesn't fool me and he's trying to come off as an angel of light - and for the superficial who have taken the dark for light, he's their pastor, and right to the fascism that he projects.

  9. I kept wondering why he consistently had his left hand in the pocket of his cassock.

    Actually he reminded me of Bishop Sheehan. Only I don't think Sheehan would have kept saying superfisssiality.

  10. The mannerisms he had with his right arm definitely reminded me of the speakers during the 1930s and 40's. I wondered what in the heck he was doing with the thumb and index finger that seem to make a big zero or a circle and with the remaining fingers in the air for a spell as his arm was raised. Weird.

  11. {Oddly cynical on Rome's part to give pope-ing ex-Anglican bishops the right to the insignia of a Catholic bishop, when these very bishop's orders have always been **utterly null and void** all along. Breathtaking chutzpah, imho.}

    Anon I had the exact same thought. It's like the Vatican was tacitly admitting they felt if they gave in on the princely symbols the schismatic TAC bishops would over look the loss of all their other perks. Which says what about the mentality of the men in the Vatican? No wonder St Escriva went to such lengths to procure his own noble title--and sainthood.

  12. ODC also stands for Opportunistically Destructive Church. Had to add that!! LOL!!

  13. Butterfly -

    Your comments on Rutler are wonderful! I have had more then a few OD types say how 'wonderful his sermons are'.

    Wonderful...how? I defy anyone here to watch his EWTN show 'Christ in the City"....and tell me exactly what the hell he is talking about! As you indicate, he does not say anything of value. And often makes no point at all O.o

    Yet it is very obvious that he knows WHAT he is saying & has a large knowledge base.

    His gestures are dated; of another era, yet very odd. Some have suggested that they could have some masonic or cultic connotation, but I am not up on my 'handjive'.

    Sheen had his own peculiar style - very dated & very much of an old style stage actor/orator/elocutionist. BUT his talks had a logical flow. Rutler's do not.

    One wonders whether he has ever actually watched a video of himself, as a positive self critque. Any good actor would do this, to iron out kinks in style or gesture 'tics'.

    Considering the level of his intellect & detail consciousness, I have to assume that most of the stage persona & gestures are intentional. Yet some (left hand in cassock) may be unconscious clues....that he is not what he seems.

    Left hand = 'Sinastra'...the sinister....kept nominally but obviously concealed.

    My overall impression of him is: 'icky'. I cannot put my finger on it....but I do not want to be alone in a room with him. Nor would I allow a child to be.

    Colleen - can you possible expound on or clue me in more about what you said here? I sort of remember what you are speaking of, but my memory is fuzzy:

    "Good ole Mother Angelica seems to have a circle in her Temple sanctuary which is loaded with Masonic symbolism. You used to be able to see it on the EWTN website, but now the photo which showed that floor pattern is gone. The floor masons came from Spain. Are you shocked?"

    No - I am not shocked. As the persons who surrounded, manipulated & eventually took over her & EWTN were profoundly evil. And linked to this Spanish element....

    Anon Y. Mouse

  14. It's a large floor mosaic on the left side of the sanctuary, if you are facing the altar. THere's also one on the right side, but the one on the left tweaked my radar.

    I wish I would have copied the photo when I first saw it, but I didn't.

  15. Ah....it might be possible to see it during their daily broadcast of Benediction, which is filmed at the 'Temple'. It is shown at least twice daily - and included wide aerial shots from a cam mounted up high in the rear of the building.

    There is likely a schedule for this on the EWTN site.....worth making a point to watch it! Thanks.

    Anon Y. Mouse

  16. It just occurred to me that the seemingly obscure use of the word 'Temple' in re a church building is something I have only encountered from Hispanic elements.

    Evangelical or Charismatic one......but never Roman Catholic, that I can recall (they would say 'Iglesia', never 'Templo').

    Note that they who used the term are from elements very close to Opus Dei:

    1) Hispanic, and 2) Evangelical/Charismatic.

    The latter element, in or outside of the Roman church is very much a project of the Opus. Cloaked in plausible deniability. As a clue - it is these elements which have virtually destroyed the mainline Protestant denominations in the US. The mainline churches are dead or dying; the cult-like Evangelicals are full to the brim.

    If you need further clarification of this, just ask.

    Anon Y. Mouse

  17. "My overall impression of him is: 'icky'. I cannot put my finger on it....but I do not want to be alone in a room with him. Nor would I allow a child to be."

    Mouse, he looked like a figure from a horror movie. He is not someone to be trusted. I sensed no light from him and least of any type of compassion for anyone. Correct: he said nothing at all of value. He uses code, buzz words, that those around him are familiar with as they have had the buzz words dripped one drop at a time into their brains.

    Jezebel, it seems to me, is code for women priests or feminist, or women who are not submissive to his "authority."

    That's just one example I gleaned from his jibber jabber. The others were "culture of death" the "NY Times" "liberals" etc.

    Opus Dei's concept of "culture of death" is what they are actually creating.

  18. OK you're right, the Course In Miracles information was fascinating. So was the information that both Groeschel and Wapnick worked in children's mental institutions before the State of NY cleaned up it's institutional mess.

    I read the entirety of the Course in Miracles as a aid for falling asleep. I can remember thinking distinctly that if Jesus truly channeled it he made a big mistake channeling through a Freudian trained psychiatrist. Totally boring and too frequently incomprehensible. I have to admit some of the daily exercises can be very good. But I think you and I both know, in the wrong hands with the wrong application, these exercises can also be devastating.

    Aren't the Groeschel CFR's associated with Stubenville? I have heard some strange anectdotal stories about what goes on in the residence halls in Stubenville such as student Resident Assistants performing exorcism rituals on other students. If true, that's pretty dangerous stuff.

  19. Butterfly -

    "Mouse, he looked like a figure from a horror movie."

    ...does this remind you of our anybody in particular?


    I was resisting mentioning the imagery, but after watching him, the simlarities are....interesting.

    For those with 1:16 to spare, a trailer video:


    For those with 84 minutes to spare (the complete film):


    In light of the Masonic symbolism referenced earlier, the document Count Orlock reads about the purchase of the old abbey....is written in Enochian.

    Anon Y. Mouse

  20. Colleen -

    Groeschel has had involvement in child care institutions since he joined the Capuchins in the late50s/early 60s. I find that disturbing, in light of his long term connections with these other elements.

    "I read the entirety of the Course in Miracles as a aid for falling asleep."


    As to the 'good' elements in ACIM, true there is some. Just enough to be attractive; to appear innocent.

    "Aren't the Groeschel CFR's associated with Stubenville?"

    ...you would think they are everywhere at once!Their HQ is in NYC, but they have spread far & wide, even to the UK & Carribean.

    Steubenville is where Opus Dei meets the Evangelical crowd. A strange brew. A true nexus of ppl assocated with EWTN. But they venerate Groeschel there. I think he is on their Board, along with Ave Maria U.

    Anytime I hear of untrained young ppl - clerical OR lay administering exorcisms, that is a clear danger signal. They know not what they do. An inexperienced wannabe exorcist is ripe for possession him/herself. This should not be fooled with. Not without experienced clerical/mental health professional advice & supervision.

  21. I meant to answer your question about the MKULTA project BLUEBIRD and the adding of alternate personalities.

    Some therapists who work in attachment therapy are of the opinion that certain personalities are either deceased walk ins, which function similar to full blown possession but only under certain circumstances, or they are purposely invited into the victim under ritual conditions at which time these alternates would be given specific instructions on when to manifest and what to do. They could then be called forth by pre planted code words by 'handlers'.

    Some folks--victims seem to think these are alien--as in inner demensional entities, others think they are demonic. Either one works for me because they both describe the same truly evil energy and the same predatory motivation that has the same result of producing emotional chaos in order to feed and control.

    This should be sufficiently out in left field for most people. Of course the pay off for the handlers are controlled people with the capacity to operate outside normal time/space/matter reality. To seemingly create miracles.

  22. Colleen -

    By definition, a demon is an 'interdimensional entity'. As they were created by God in Eternity (outside of Time/Space). They like Angels (the good guys...) are capable of interdimensional travel.

    In other words, they can enter/leave "Time/Space". This is sometimes defined as 'time travel'. This is also a clue as to the Physics of 'Bilocation'...ala Padre Pio. In his case, God made it possible for him to do & experience this. Ditto for Enoch.

    For reasons I will not go into publicly, Groeschel is a 'controlled controller'. He has 'handlers' and for all practical purposes, you would think that he Bilocates. I am dropping a hint here.

    Now contemplate how he is the 'official counselor' to abuser priests, for decades.......you mentioned planting code words/instructions......

    Colleen - let me cut to the chase:

    Do you realize that everything you have said to me in this reply is - expressed in psychological terms - what is contained in the Prophecy of La Salette?

    If you have not read it, find a COMPLETE & non-OD edited version. You will be quite shocked.

    Anon Y. Mouse

  23. Mouse, I have discussed these same concepts with Native American elders. They are very much aware of the inner demensional aspect of these beings and their capacity to move back and forth in time.

    They are also very much aware of our capacity to move back and forth in time and set a different future for ourselves.

    I remember very vividly one of them looking me right in the eye, which is unusual for this tribe, and telling me he thought some of what passed for alien sightings were really our future humanity manifesting in our time to change their present or collect better non mutated genetics.

    He said the ceremonies they did were in a quantum sense stop this from happening and chart a different future. I asked him point blank if he wasn't discussing using time travel or shamanic journey, as a weapon. He said, that's one way to look at it, but it could also be using our capacity to move through time to insure our own better future and the key to acheiving this was love for our present and hope for our children's children. That fear, which is the true killer, can not exist in love and we must build a sustainable future based in love.

    I don't think OD and their evangelical counterparts want a future based in love, because they are so thoroughly controlled by fear. I will fight their future every which way I can.

  24. Anon Y. Mouse said:

    Note that they who used the term are from elements very close to Opus Dei:

    1) Hispanic, and 2) Evangelical/Charismatic.

    The latter element, in or outside of the Roman church is very much a project of the Opus. Cloaked in plausible deniability. As a clue - it is these elements which have virtually destroyed the mainline Protestant denominations in the US. The mainline churches are dead or dying; the cult-like Evangelicals are full to the brim.

    If you need further clarification of this, just ask.
    John says:
    I should note that Eastern Orthodox also routinely use the word 'temple' in reference to their church buildings. Perhaps a connection, perhaps not?

    As for the Evangelical Protestants destroying mainline churches, well, they've certainly benefited by the decline in numbers in mainline groups. 'Dead or dying' is a bit over the top. Something like 70% of the active membership in my (Anglo-Catholic) Episcopal parish and similar TEC parishes are made up of disenchanted R.C.'s and evangelicals. My point is that not all non-Roman Catholic or evangelical parishes are dying. Hardly. But perhaps I miss your point.

    Thanks. Feel free to clarify here or offline (see my avatar).

  25. John, I think Mouse may have been referencing the Institute for Religion and Democracy. IRD has been waging a war against the mainline protestant churches who like TEC have a strong social justice stance. This covert war has been going on for quite awhile and also involves the Methodists and Presbyterians and ECLA.

    IRD has also spent bunches of money backing Akinola and other conservative African prelates. IRD is hugely influenced by neo con Catholics.

  26. ## The poaching was bad - but: if people are going to become RCs, ISTM they should be welcomed. Any genuine conversion is by God's grace - & God is well able to use man's wrong-doing as the mean of His own well-doing. So in any genuine conversions, no matter what the appearances, the God of Grace is at work.

    Converts have found their fellow-Catholics unwelcoming, even resentful; and things should not be made more difficult for converts than they need be.

    Some members of the converts to the CC in the TAC may be gay-bashers, but why suppose the worst of all of them ?